Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by Coccy » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:28 am

RoswellOracle wrote:Well, just because the pod squad was from Antar, doesn't mean the shapeshifters were also from there. They could have come from another planet that the Antarians explored. We just don't know.
i think that since they came from there too it's easier (or more natural/logic) to assume that they were antarians too. because it's easy to assume it If they weren't then someone would have explained it.
Langley was even programmed to obey to the king (we don't know if Nacedo was the same i will never understand although someone could argue that in some scenes he did follow Max's direct orders. Some people also think that Langley was the real protector while Nacedo wasn't or he had another role) and if i'm not wrong he referred to Antar as his home planet (the fact that he didn't like it and he likes earth better is another question)
Then we really don't know so much about those people but i personally think that the assumption that Zan&co were completely and totally different (and that the protectors came from another planet) is way bigger than assuming that all the antarians have more or less the same basic form with some changes. At least with what we actually have.
This when we talk about the canon. Fanfictions can give you more freedom though, since many things weren't so explained people can create their own version of Antar. (but personally i cringe a bit when people describe them as humans in fanfictions :lol: for what i know they could kiss each other using tails and they talk using the nose LOL but i understand the romantic idea that the aliens are like us for we humans it isn't so easy to imagine a world that is totally different to ours where what is natural for them it's extremely weird for us).


ps: in the cartoon opening theme from "i married an alien" they represented Max&Co with the generic alien form :lol: the writers really weren't that original.
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by RoswellOracle » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:01 pm

I thought it was fanon too, nibbles, but I guess not everyone agrees.

So Coccy, why are you assuming the pod squad are like the shapeshifters with a few changes and not like the Skins with a few changes?

The Skins are from Antar too, just like the shapeshifters, and the Skins are totally different than the shapeshifters.

And why change the pod squad at all if they are shapeshifters? Shapeshifters can live on Earth with no changes. Shapeshifters could appear human, so they don't need to be given a human body. There was never a plan for the podsters to live in a family with humans, so there would be no need for them to be able to pass as humans in medical tests or anything.

As for the shapeshifters, why would someone mention they came from another planet, or were engeineered, or whatever? No one EVER explained ANYTHING. :lol: "Howdy, my name is Nasedo, and I'm your protector and a shapeshifter, and BTW my species orig came from a different planet than you are from." :wink:

I don't know about it being natural to assume the shapeshifters were from Antar. It is your opinion and may seem logical to you, I'm not so sure. We know the Antarians had space travel ability, we know there are at least 4 other habital planets in their solar system, and it is very likely they explored even more planets. Who knows who or what they may have found in all that time? I'd certainly be surprised if they didn't have something from other planets.

Personally I think the shapeshifters might have come from another planet or perhaps were created or altered by the Antarians, for one simple reason - slavery. Basically the shapeshifters were slaves, forced to do what they were ordered. Slavery in any form is terrible, but to think the Antarians enslaved some of their own people is reprehensible. Wouldn't the Antarian people be horrified that other beings from their planet were being forced into servitude?

We don't really know anything about the people, that is true. We don't know their viewpoint on slavery. But if some people were forced into slavery, then couldn't the same be done to your neighbors, friends, relatives, and even you?

Now if the shapeshifters were from another planet, it might seem more acceptible, or possibly the shapeshifters were genetically engineered, created or altered for the purpose of service. It is likely they had to 'programmed' to obey the king, so maybe they were just created from scratch and aren't a real species at all.

:| and yeah, I'll not be envisioning the Antarians as resembling anything from Avatar. :(
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by Coccy » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:12 am

What's the point about some things being "fanon"?
fanon means made by the fans and not the canon no?

RoswellOracle wrote:I thought it was fanon too, nibbles, but I guess not everyone agrees.
So Coccy, why are you assuming the pod squad are like the shapeshifters with a few changes and not like the Skins with a few changes?
not really, i'm not saying that they were like shapeshifters
maybe my point wasn't clear
my point is that they're all antarians and the original basic form of those people (the physical appearance only) can be similar, not 100% the same but similar. Then each "group" have some differences.
Again, like in our planet you have people with different color of skin, hair and eyes and they can have different abilities (like the fact for example that some people are artists while others like more science etc etc) maybe it was the same on antar too. (just they have different "powers")

so I'm not saying that Zan&co were shapeshifters or skins
i'm just talking about the basic physical appearance/form (the body :lol:) that most likely is similar for all the antarians.
I don't know about it being natural to assume the shapeshifters were from Antar. It is your opinion and may seem logical to you, I'm not so sure.


the contrary is an opinion as well and it may seem logical to you but i'm not so sure either. :lol:
You keep assuming tons of things that were never said or proved in the canon

again Langley (one of the the shapeshifters) referred to antar as his home planet or talked about it like if that place was his original home. I take it in consideration. Beside, nothing in the series told me that those people weren't antarians too.
Personally I think the shapeshifters might have come from another planet or perhaps were created or altered by the Antarians, for one simple reason - slavery. Basically the shapeshifters were slaves, forced to do what they were ordered. Slavery in any form is terrible, but to think the Antarians enslaved some of their own people is reprehensible. Wouldn't the Antarian people be horrified that other beings from their planet were being forced into servitude?

We don't really know anything about the people, that is true. We don't know their viewpoint on slavery. But if some people were forced into slavery, then couldn't the same be done to your neighbors, friends, relatives, and even you?

for what i know those people could have a totally different viewpoint about so many things i don't find it so weird that they enslaved their own people. We humans should know that it's very possible since we did it too. And humans surely didn't use people from other planets, they considered "aliens" some people and enslaved them only because they have a different color of skin for example. Do i need to make examples from the history? I think that we have tons. Humans not only enslave their own race but they're able to kill tons of innocent people including children just because their country is a "enemy" for their country. Many people still don't care about the fact that we're all humans regardless the differencies
Maybe on Antar it was like that too and some people were/are considered inferior compared to others regardless if they're antarians too.
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by RoswellOracle » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:23 pm

Yes, fanon is made by the fans, but it is generally an opinion shared by the majority of fans. That is all.
the contrary is an opinion as well and it may seem logical to you but i'm not so sure either.
You keep assuming tons of things that were never said or proved in the canon
Of course it is my opinion. Never said I could prove anything or I wasn't making assumptions. I'm simply putting forth theories. Isn't that what we are all doing? I'm was just saying, what makes your opinion more logical than mine. It is logical to you, but perhaps not to everyone. I can't prove mine, you can't prove yours. Doesn't make one better than the other.

And of course we don't know anything about the people, how many races there were, what the orig form was, what they believed in, or anything else. I just think it is fun to speculate about different things. I'm not shooting anyone down or ridiculing any theories. We just don't share the same viewpoint. You are Antar-centric, little-green-men-centric, and I like to think in wider posibilities.

And I think you are make a huge assumption that everyone on every planet is basically the same. Sure we are the same on Earth, but that doesn't make it normal for every planet. So to me, even if all the races of aliens were from Antar orig, it doesn't necessiarily mean they all have the same basic physiology. They could have come from completely different evolutionary lines, developed different appearances, different abilities, etc.
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by Coccy » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:09 am

Honesly this is the first time that i actually read some theories. I don't know if the majority of the fans share this opinion that Nacedo&co came from another planet.. anyway fanon is not canon for a reason and the two words shouldn't be confused. The phrase "this is fanon" doesn't make a theory a fact regardless if many share the same belief or not.

---------

RoswellOracle, I think that we're basically saying the same thing with some differences
For you Zan&co were more "human" looking, totally different from the generic alien form and more beautiful than Nacedo and Langley while for me the basic form could be pretty similar but maybe the protectors were green/grey while other antarians are blue or they're made of light like the ones that we saw in summer of 47 (these are just examples). Similar "body" but different colors, shapes, powers, abilities etc etc.
I don't need to believe that the shapeshifters weren't antarians in order to believe that on antar you have different looking people.
I also don't need to believe that Zan&co were more similar to the skins just because they both needed a human body to survive in our planet while the shapeshifters didn't need it. The skins aren't like Max and the others. They really were aliens who used a human body as a temporarily "mask" while Max&co are clones, hybrids, new people, totally different beings created using the duplicated genetic material of human and alien donors so that they could get eight children who later become adults. What the antarians did to the royal four is totally different for me to what the skins did to themselves. If the skins were like the royal four then you have to wonder why they didn't choose clonation as well instead of a limited "skin" that wouldn't last forever.
I'm was just saying, what makes your opinion more logical than mine.
i didn't mean that my opinion is more logical
after all what's my opinion here? I'm pretty generic
My considerations are simple and they're based sorely in what we saw or was told without giving too much credit to the writers, without thinking that they were so original...but the core point is that we don't know how those people were so it's impossible to be "specific".

you said that the shapeshifters came from another planet and they were totally different to Zan&co. I said that i find no clues in the show that can prove this assumption. Since no one ever said that Nacedo and Langley weren't antarians too and you have scenes where they talk about the planet as their home and you know that they came from there too and they were, apparently, devoted to the royal four and sent here to protect them it's more natural for me to assume that they're antarians too instead of assuming that they weren't just because i don't want to imagine Zan&co with the generic alien form. The fact itself that Langley had to obey to the king tells me for example that even if the royals weren't exactly like him in order to have the ability to create such a link between the protector and the king the same race/species should be required....assuming that he was born like that or they programmed him later. I also think that the antarians had to trust those protectors a lot if they decided to leave the royal four with them. It doesn't make so much sense to me that they could choose potentially enemies (people from other planets that they enslaved and who didn't have a reason to bring the royal four back and "save" antar) as their protectors. The fact that Langley was programmed to obey to the king doesn't guarantee so much... in fact he hated Max and he abandoned them all. He couldn't kill Max with his own hands but he could ruin his life.
The fact that both Nacedo and Langley didn't care about the royal four could be a hint of the fact that maybe not all the antarians wanted the royal four back and they may have their good reasons. After all "the king" wasn't portrayed as a really good one, in fact some characters described him as cold, selfish, ungrateful.. our common stereotyped bad king basically. The princess was no better since she betrayed her family and people. If Rath was like Michael when he became the king in the third season then he was no angel either. And the queen.. well her clone worked for Kivar because she didn't consider him her enemy.. Tess considered herself Ava and was stuck with the "past" so who knows what really happened on antar in the light of what Tess said i have to question if Ava loved her husband or not.

back to the original point.. Nacedo was portrayed as a cold alien who didn't have feelings. Langley was a killer too, he was cold too.. yet i can't help but notice some differences between the two. Then they had other protectors but they died so we don't know if they were similar to them. Nacedo was a robot.. Langley killed for a reason (even if it's bad and still despicable), Nacedo killed people regardless if it was necessary for his survival. Langley had feelings: he hated, he was envious of the humans, he felt sadness and happiness, he even was delusional, he was hopeful, he felt misery and at one point in the end he even seemed to feel sympathy for Max (see when he gave him that advice about the alien side). The point is that maybe not all the shapeshifters were the same.. maybe Nacedo was emotionless because that was *his* personality. Same for the royal four. They didn't have to be necessarily bad or good just because they were aliens.
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by RoswellOracle » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:15 pm

Actually I'm not sure we are saying the same thing at all. I'm beginning to wonder if you are understanding what I'm saying. :lol:

I actually said concerning the shapeshifters that they might come from Antar, or they might not. Either way works for me. Just giving theories to support the ideas.

And I was giving some reasons why I thought the Royal 4 in their original form before they became hybrids where probably more similar to the Skins original form than they were to the shapeshifters. Again, there is no proof, just theories based on observations.

Of course the royal 4 are different than both shapeshifters and Skins now that they have been made into hybrids.

And I don't think you could call the shapeshifters loyal to the royal 4 AT ALL. They only did what they were forced to do, and did a pretty crappy job at that. Then Nasedo made a deal with the enemy and Kal adondoned them. If I were forced to follow orders, I would hate my 'masters' no matter who they were or where they came from. They seem a pretty bad choice for protectors.
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by dreambeliever » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:19 pm

Don't know if this has ever been mentioned but I always hated and wondered why the show went to so much lenths to show that Tess struggled with mindwarps only in the end to have her hold a minwarp for months on Alex..seemingly miles away in Las Cruces! (I mean even if she was just pretending in the beginning how come they never explained that when she came back?) Grrrr... :twisted: So yeah, that's my nitpick for today about the dumb writers and their lack of continuity. :mrgreen:

All better now..... 8) >>>>>Shelah
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by valentinebaby » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:02 am

I think that might be because honestly what Tess did to Amy and Alex was similar to a mind warp it wasn't quite the same thing, she extracted memories and put new ones in their place, rather than made someone believe that something wasn't there or something was happening that it wasn't.

Although honestly the whole Alex thing bothers me in general, because you've got to think that's also more of mind control, she made him translate that book, made him order the same thing every day, and somehow made him send emails from "Sweden." That's a whole lot of power and I don't think anything the others did could even rival that.
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by jake17 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:36 am

Ok I"m not sure if I'm going to be able to explain exactly what I mean here but I'll give it a try...

From the beginning something always bothered me about the show.

We all know that in the pilot Liz was shot and Max healed her.

Jim became suspicious of Max for all the reasons we already know, the two witnessess that heard the gun go off and saw him run to her, they didn't find the bullet. Then Jim had her uniform with the blood on it and Kyle saw the handprint on her stomach ...He talked to Liz about that photo of that man with the same silver hand print, saying that he was murdered... blah, blah, blah...

This is what always bothered me.

Jim immediately thought of Max as a villian, when he saw him at the alien crash reinactment party (cannot for the life of me remember what the hell that was called, very tired :roll:) when they tried to trick him with Michael wearing Kyle's costume. Jim pushed Max against that van and threatenend him. "I know you went up to Liz Parker that day and you did something to her, and I'm going to find out what it was, you can count on it Max!"

The only problem is that Max didn't hurt Liz, if they go by all the evidence and suspicions Max saved her, if she had the silver hand print like he thought ("the hand print faded on the corpse too Liz") then yes he might be an alien or whatever BUT if he was evil why would he heal her.

I understand it was needed to move the story along but I just wish there was at least one conversation maybe in the pilot when he gave the dress to the FBI or maybe to Hubble in the episode convention that said, "Hey you know what doesn't make sense here? If Max is the same killer back in the 50's why did he help, heal, save Liz Parker, and if so why when everyone became suspicious didn't he move on.,leave run off somewhere else? Especially when Hubble starting questioning JIm, it seemed like it was the shapeshifters MO to kill and move on... so if Max was this dangerous alien why would he stick around for 17 years and pretend to be a teenage boy. None of it fits.

That scene in the pilot where Jim handcuffs Max and throws him against the van really bothers me, Max says... "are you arresting me?" and Jim says "no, you're parents will have you out in an hour."

arrest him for what ?? Why is he so angry at him. Is it because of the history with his father and the whole alien thing? because as I see it Max did nothing wrong, whether you believe he was an alien or not he never hurt her. Liz never said he did, nor did anyone else for that matter.

If anything he saved her. So that would make him ...good right?

I guess I would've been satisfied if they at least questioned the fact that if Max did 'do' something to her it wasn't anything bad, if anything he actually saved her life.

Why would a shapeshifting killer from the 50's pretend to be a teenage boy and leave himself wide open to be discovered? Not even trying to escape when people started asking questions and threathening him. Jim is a smart man you think he would've at least wondered about this. I know he came around eventually and helped but like I said, in the beginning where he handcuffed him and threatened him really bothered me...

Sorry for all the rambling ... I've been up all night, hope this makes sense to someone out there, :wink: :roll:

carrie :)
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Re: Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

Post by nibbles2 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:40 am

In the Melinda Metz series, Valenti really was a nasty, evil piece of work who was determined to track down and destroy all the aliens. (It's been a while since I read them but I think he was part of an organisation who wanted to wipe them out.) He didn't care if they were good or bad. I think that the he was cast in the same role in the pilot. I think he comes across as creepier and more sinister in the first episode than he does in the rest of season one because thankfully they humanised him in the show.

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