Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby vilandragirl » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:16 pm

Very well stated, ADreamerDestiny.

I am another one that much prefered the idea of Alien Boy falls in love with Human girl storyline. The problem is that a lot of what we thought about the Podsters changed at the end of S1. The way I see their past lives is that Tess and Max were an arranged marriage, for some political reason. I see a lot of potential for a storyline where Liz was the one that Max really loved on Antar. That would align very well with their experience on Earth, where Tess was being forced on Max.

I should specify that my perspective changes from the show to fanfic. On the show, I am fully committed to the idea that Liz was human, and never experienced a life on Antar. But the great thing about fanfic is that we have infinite possibilities. So for me, in fanfic there is lots of room for Liz to be Antarian.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Sin » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:47 pm

nibbles2 wrote:So given that Max and Liz is about love and free will and Max and Tess is about destiny and programming - why do so many dreamer fics revolve around the notion of Max and Liz being destined, prophesised, reborn to be with each other?


My interpretation of it for the reborn love for each other thing stems a lot from various information we got from Zan (the dupe) and Max himself from the pilot. The fact that without Liz, Max is completely lost is something I feel the show portrayed quite well. Without Liz, Max is lost more or less. So it wouldn't surprise me if back on Antar Zan was completely miserable with his life. It wouldn't surprise me if Zan was unemotional, cold and for all intensive purposes dead inside because he didn't have a Liz to guide him. We saw what Ava said to Liz about Zan, "it was like he was waiting for something". I think that missing something or someone was Liz personally and I think that just makes the ship that much more transcendent that Max in all of his versions was lost with Liz. The fact that Max first saw Liz when he got off the bus when he was in third grade and felt that he wasn't alone, that he belonged and that he loved her from afar is a fairytale in itself I think. I think that's what the fics revolve around. That Liz and Max are destined for each other because of their connection and because they aren't whole without each other. They aren't alive without one another. Destined does not mean arranged to me. Destined means that they belong with each other, they are soul mates. It's not the same as someone being traded to be matched with someone. It doesn't mean a loveless relationship which is what Max and Tess were. They weren't even whole people, they were shells of people and Max was never happy with her. That's not destiny, that's not a clandestine relationship.

There are dozens of fics where it's revealed that Liz was Max's lover on Antar and she was recreated under the same process as the aliens and implanted in Nancy Parker so that she and Max could find each other again. I get that the idea of soulmates is romantic. But is that not the very same thing as Max and Tess being programmed to be with each other?


No. It's not the same. Tess and Max never loved each other. Tess didn't love Max and Max didn't love Tess. More over the Max/Tess relationship was never really about love. It was about duty, Max never really felt anything for Tess other than obligation for the most part. You can't take love out of a relationship. The fact that Max/Tess never loved each other isn't a detail, it's the very reason why they never worked.

They're not exactly star-crossed lovers if they were genetically programmed to fall in love with each other.


You can't program people to love each other. If Roswell told us one thing it was that. Isabel and Michael couldn't love each other just because they were programmed to, same for Tess and Max.

To me, it diminishes their love because really, how do you know that they're actually in love and not just programmed to act that way?


I think it's quite simple. You can't program love or emotional reactions to people.

A lot of fics also have Max and Liz going into heat so that they'll make love and procreate. Again to me, this is very unromantic. Are they really in love and attracted to each other or is their cells just fullfilling their biological process?


Physical chemistry and physical attraction is not the same as being biologically programmed. So I don't get your point? Max and Liz were always attracted to each other so stories where Max goes into heat and wants only Liz makes sense because of their emotional connection, the fact that they love each other. The fact that Max can't keep his hands on her is just an added bonus I think. There seems to be a misunderstand (at least to me) of what pre-programmed means and when a persons reactions come in. I don't think you can even program attraction, Max didn't even originally notice Tess until she started mind-warping him in Crazy and even after that he showed her no attention until much later, he had no desire to sleep with her until after Liz and him had a fall out and he was convinced that Liz no longer wanted anything to do with him any more. I don't think attraction can be pre-programed into a person. Chemistry and attraction are not the same to me as a cold clinical breeding process. I think you are detaching all of the very real emotional sides of their bond with this generalization.

They are reduced to the same level as most other animals who commit sexual acts with each other, not because of affection and attraction but because they are biologically driven to perform that function at a certain time of year. Just like the migrate or hibernate or whatever.


Eh. I certainly disagree. Mostly because Max and Liz aren't animals. They are human beings with minds and who usually have something else attracting and grounding them to one another. Most dreamer fics usually don't have Max and Liz together for one breeding cycle and then they hate each other the rest of the year it doesn't work like that. I think all of these kind of fics stem from the fact that Max since the age of 9 recognized Liz as his soul mate and all of these kind of stories just play off of that. If Max is a guy and he is in heat he wants to sleep with Liz because she is the one woman for him. The dreamer relationship in these kinds of fics is usually just theme. It's not like Max is trying to impregnate every girl he sees. I think your missing the main parts to these stories.

That they rebelled against biology, destiny, and everything else and fell in love with each other.


I feel like your linking these words biology and destiny with clincal, programmed and cold which isn't the case with a lot of these dreamer cases.

If Max and Liz are really about free will and love, then why do so many dreamers want them to be 'programmed' together?


It's not that Liz or Max are programmed. Again I think it more or less comes down to the fact that Max saw her one day when he was 9 and knew instantly that she was the one for him and he only had eyes for her. Max was always drawn to Liz and it had nothing to do with Tess.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Sundae » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:15 pm

The whole idea of Tess being programmed to "love" / "like" Max or them having an arranged marriage is complete bull (well somewhat bullish) when you take into account what Brody/Larek reveled in "Off the Menu".

They met on Dimara's rock. Zan and Larek were swimming, Zan looked up and saw Tess and said she was the most beautiful girl he had ever seen.

Taken from Roswell Transcripts

"BRODY: Dimaras rock. I couldn’t remember before but the name just came to me. Dimaras, after the third moon. That’s where you two first met. You must remember? Dimaras rock, it it juts out over the water. Ah, I can see it so clearly. The moon hanging over the horizon, (Tess closes her eyes, remembering) And the color of the water…crimson red. I was there with you before you were king. (Max gives Brody an incredulous look) We were swimming, and you looked up, and saw her on a rock. You said she was the most beautiful girl you’d ever seen. (Max looks to Tess, who looks back) But of course you were too afraid to go talk to her. I offered to make the approach on your behalf, but you told me not to. (Max looks back to Brody) Back then you were always so nervous and quiet. (Brody chuckles) But lucky for you I was neither shy nor obedient. (Tess remembering) So I went and met her and introduced you two the same night… (Brody chuckles)"

"BRODY: But you do love her. I know you do. I was there when you met!"

~~~~~

(That night, Max comes in through Tess’s bedroom window.)

TESS: Max? Max, what is it?

MAX: Well, when I healed Brody…I saw these -- these flashes, of Brody, of Larek, but also…

TESS: but also what?

MAX: I remember you.

(She cries and Max wipes the tear off her cheek)


-------

Its clear to see that emotions on Antar were the same as they are on Earth. Brody/Larek uses words like beautiful, shy, love, quiet. He's uses imagery that's soft and distinguishes between emotions a person feels...its not clinical or technical as most fics that are placed Antar seem to be.

Arguments of Tess only being with Max to be King...well he obviously met her before he was King...and from what Brody/Larek said in off the menu...he made it sound like from the moment they were introduced to each other, they were taken.

--------

I know...I think I'm one of the only few that truly believes that Tess and Max were truly in love on Antar. No, not on earth, on Antar. Maybe love is not meant to transcend time and space. Things happened to Tess, it made her someone different (a conflict of a life she remembers that may have been perfect vs a life she has now that is full of abuse). Max doesn't remember his past and for that he's content with his life on earth..and he connected with Liz.
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Coccy » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:20 am

Sundae wrote:The whole idea of Tess being programmed to "love" / "like" Max or them having an arranged marriage is complete bull (well somewhat bullish) when you take into account what Brody/Larek reveled in "Off the Menu".


Brody/Larek not Zan himself or Max. Big difference.
I think that the only one who could really give us a true insight of Zan's feelings was Zan himself.

Brody/Larek said that Zan found her beautiful. I find beautiful many people but this doesn't mean that i'm in love with them. Being in love is something more than attraction. It could be a relationship based on lust (of course the equivalent of your "lust" but alien) and the way he described the scene can fit with the idea of arranged marriage. There're many stories about arranged marriages that start like that with the girl being purposely placed where the king can see her and notice her.

What happened in Off the menù is not 100% genuine IMO, in fact i think that the episode was a key
Brody believed that he was Larek, you should take into account that he was crazy and extremely confused. He basically had a brain damage that Max healed in the end of the episode. Apparently Brody accessed to Larek's memories, if that was possible. Were those memories real? We don't know but i always found it extremely weird and suspicious that everything Larek remembered was the love life of his friend. Why he cared so much? Why he wanted to convince Max? what's the deal? He was so obsessed. He should have gotten memories about Larek's private life not Zan's. Was Larek a loser who didn't have his own life?
The most suspicious thing is the "memory" itself that Max got from him when he healed him. Max saw a memory of Zan&Ava kissing and that image was one of the mindwarps from the first season! and it showed Zan&Ava as humans (kissing in that place with the rock formation that is situated in roswell) while we know for sure that they weren't like Max&Tess, they weren't humans. For the life of me i can't understand why Larek not only should remember them in their human forms (assuming that he was a voyeur who liked to spy his friend while he was making out with his partner ) but he would remember THAT specific image that was one of Tess' mindwarps in the first season. How he could know that? The only logical explanation for me is that the supposed memory was placed there by the one that created it the first season: Tess. And remember that Tess was free to use her powers while Max was healing Brody (and we know from other examples that she didn't need to be in the same room in order to mindwarp someone). She also was free to mindwarp him BEFORE he activated that thing that blocked their powers. Who knows maybe she went there at the UFO center to mindwarp him and implant those memories in his head, maybe that was the reason of why he acted so crazy. To me it was a bit similar to how Alex felt when he was confused about his fake memories of the trip in Sweden. The whole "Max this is a gift for you" seemed forced to me, it seemed a pretext in order to justify her presence at the ufo center. And knowing her it could be.
She was desperate and she needed something, anything, to convince Max. Off the menù was showed as a key episode that explained why Max did those memory retrievals with her in Heart of mine when in the whole year he never cared to do that. It also was important because it showed that Tess had placed her bloody hands on more than one person.

anyway the point is that Off the menù isn't the most reliable source of informations especially if you want to call "bully" the ones that don't believe that Zan&Ava's marriage was based on true love. :roll: Sorry but honestly i think that you should firstly get something more concrete in order to prove the contrary. I think that people can assume what they want about that relationship because it was never explained. We can only judge the facts and the facts aren't a phrase said by a crazy guy in the middle of an identity's crisis IMO
The only past life relationship that was more developed and undeniable was the one between Vilandra and Kivar, i think. And even that relationship was tainted and Vilandra's feelings or supposed feelings were weaker than Isabel's love for Jesse.

Even if you believe that a crazy and confused guy like Brody said the truth without any doubt (even if, again, Larek's voice wasn't Zan's) the informations he said aren't so much and they don't prove alone that Zan&Ava loved each other. It's lame.
It's like believing in what Michael said in "who died and made you a king".
When he tried to kill Jesse and said "She was my first, did you know that? We were together before you were born, and we'll be together when you're nothing but bones."
so what? that proved alone that Rath loved Vilandra and that Michael had a thing for Isabel? LOL
i don't think that these situations are a reliable source of informations and, again, in off the menù it wasn't even Max/Zan who said that phrase. It was the supposed opinion of someone else.

In addiction, the idea that Zan&Ava loved each other is strongly contradicted by Tess' betrayal and the fact that she worked for Zan's number one enemy aka Kivar.
I think that Kivar had his good reasons for thinking that Tess would have worked for him and she would have betrayed Max.
If Tess had really loved Max she wouldn't have betrayed him. The deal was made way before she met him and understood that he didn't love her back.
I also remember a cut scene from the episode "control" (third season) where Langley told Max "you idiot you slept with the enemy" (search "roswell uncut" --> control) that phrase was deleted but Max's answer when he agreed with what Langley had previously said is still in the episode. He said "you were right, i slept with the enemy".
Langley also hated Max because he remembered how Zan was and described him as selfish and ungrateful someone who didn't care about other people.

In departure when Max angrily asked Tess how it was possible that Zan loved and married someone like her (since that was what Tess had always said about him) Tess answered:

"You were different-- you were a king! Now you're just a boy."

it's a weird answer, being a king have nothing to do with love.
I always interpreted that phrase as Zan was a king he didn't care about stupid things like love and feelings like YOU, Max, do.

and what about the dupes? The dupes remembered "their past" and Zan and Ava were together. But from Ava's own admission Zan didn't really love her and he was awaiting for someone else. And you know it's not that Zan had a "Liz" like Max... Ava didn't have a rivalry like Tess, no? Yet Zan didn't really love Ava and she knew it. That scene was placed there for a purpose and i think that it was just another clue of the fact that destiny was a big fail no matter if the "Zans" found their soulmate (like Max did with Liz) or not. M&T and Z&A could never work.

These are all things that people take into account too reason of why they have that opinion of the past life that you called "bullish"
you have one phrase said by a crazy guy vs many other clues that contradicts it.


maybe Zan had to die and a part of him reborn as Max in order to find his soulmate in another time and another place. After all this is how Ronald Moore called Max and Liz: soulmates across time and space.


Max doesn't remember his past and for that he's content with his life on earth..and he connected with Liz.

assuming that it can be considered a past since to me Max and Zan aren't the same person. Max is a clone made with Zan's duplicated dna/essence. It's not sure that it was reincarnation especially when both the momogram and the destiny book always talked about duplicated things while reincarnation is a transfered soul not something duplicated. And even the ones that believe in reincarnation know that you aren't supposed to remember your previous life and you can't be the same person you were in that other time and place. Heck the whole purpose of reincarnation is to not repeat history.
Honestly i think roswell's interpretation of "past life" is extremely lame and shabby.

anyway the show stressed the fact that Max&Co aren't really Zan&Co very much IMO

Max remembered some things about that past (assuming that those weren't mindwarps by Tess since she was the one that "helped" him :roll: ) but he never said that he remembered loving Ava. He remembered a kiss but he didn't feel the feelings. He even wanted to share the news with Liz. He wouldn't have liked to share them with Liz if those memories had really changed something for him. The point was that memories or not they didn't change the way he felt toward Liz and Tess knew it. The core point here always remains.
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Cocogurl » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:34 am

Coccy, you make a lot of really good points. There are several things we can't say for sure was a mindwarp or was something real, Max's memories especially. I totally believe that Tess was willing and able to manipulate Max if she thought he was slipping away from her.


Coccy wrote:Brody/Larek said that Zan found her beautiful. I find beautiful many people but this doesn't mean that i'm in love with them. Being in love is something more than attraction. It could be a relationship based on lust (of course the equivalent of your "lust" but alien) and the way he described the scene can fit with the idea of arranged marriage. There're many stories about arranged marriages that start like that with the girl being purposely placed where the king can see her and notice her.


I totally agree. Finding someone attractive doesn't mean you love someone. Real love goes beyond the physical. And if what Larek said about Zan's personality was the truth, than I kind of doubt he had a lot of experience with women. What if Ava was the first real relationship he had. It's always easy to confuse that with eternal and true love.

We don't know but i always found it extremely weird and suspicious that everything Larek remembered was the love life of his friend. Why he cared so much? Why he wanted to convince Max? what's the deal? He was so obsessed. He should have gotten memories about Larek's private life not Zan's. Was Larek a loser who didn't have his own life?


This is another thing I agree with. I mean, why was he so obsessed with Zan's life? He didn't talk at all about any personal memory he had on Antar. He couldn't even tell Max about a personal memory he had with Zan. If they were such best friends, why couldn't he give Max a memory that those two shared together WITHOUT Tess being in the picture? It's like everything in Max's past life had to do with Ava/Tess. Even his supposed best friend Larek is obsessed with their relationship. That was always very odd to me.


Sundae wrote:Max doesn't remember his past and for that he's content with his life on earth..and he connected with Liz.


Max was more than just content with his life. He loved his life on earth and he didn't want to return home. Even Tess showing him memories (or mindwarping him. I never know with her) of his life with her and his life on Antar didn't make him want to go home. He was willing to go back for his child. That's it. It wasn't just that he was settled on earth. He found a home there with the Evans and with Liz. And it obviously didn't have anything to do with the fact that before Tess came into the picture, he had no memory of his past life.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Coccy » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:12 am

Cocogurl wrote:Coccy, you make a lot of really good points. There are several things we can't say for sure was a mindwarp or was something real, Max's memories especially. I totally believe that Tess was willing and able to manipulate Max if she thought he was slipping away from her.


exactly. She was able to do it. She did it with Alex: she made him remember and care about people and a place that he never saw.
why she shouldn't do the same with Max?

what a coincidence the fact that Max didn't have other memories after she was gone.
It makes me remember the fact that in the first season all those "dreams" that Michael/Isabel and Max had suddenly vanished as soon as they understood that she was an alien and Isabel, by seeing her power, realized that Tess had mindwarped Max.


off the menù is an episode that was used by the writers to give us some clues about what was happening in that arc and Alex's death. Remember this is what Maria said at the beginning of the episode . The whole purpose of the episode was to make you feel suspicious about what was happening before finally telling you who Tess really was.
The episode's purpose wasn't to show that Zan&Ava loved each other in the other life.
I remember the interviews by the writers. The last episodes were an arc and the main story of that arc was the fact that Tess was a betrayer and Alex's killer and that Max fell in her trap and manipulations. Everything is linked.

also, Sundae, i noticed that you quoted only some of the phrases said in the episode taking them out of context because you removed the answers or other important phrases said there
the complete scene that included one of the phrases that you posted is this one:

MAX: (Quietly) I’m sorry, Brody. But none of that is real. None of that happened.
(Now Tess looks at him and is visibly more hurt)
BRODY: But you do love her. I know you do. I was there when you met!
MAX: You’re wrong. We’re not in love. We never have been.

I think that more than what Brody was saying it's important what Max said.
these are phrases that should be taken into account as well.

not to mention the scene when Tess said "You’re still in love with her (Liz), aren’t you?"
and when Max answered Tess said that he used to feel that way toward her too :roll:

i think that what Tess was trying to do in that episode is pretty obvious. Max is in love with Liz. But he "should" love Tess. Tess says it. Brody/Larek says it. Everyone but Max himself. :roll: They were trying to convince Max that he HAD to feel that way because they were saying it.
Was Max confused by the memories, fake or not? I think that he was and this, along with other things, contributed to create his personal crisis in "It's too late and it's too bad" .

I totally agree. Finding someone attractive doesn't mean you love someone. Real love goes beyond the physical. And if what Larek said about Zan's personality was the truth, than I kind of doubt he had a lot of experience with women. What if Ava was the first real relationship he had. It's always easy to confuse that with eternal and true love.


King Henry VIII was attracted to Anne Boleyn because he thought that she was beautiful. Yet we all know what he did to her :roll:
and he isn't the first and last example. History teaches that only few kings married women that they really loved
I also think that, realistically, it's hard for a king to really have a love story especially when they have too many duties to think about and when they can choose a spouse only between limited candidates.

if we really want to speculate and assume that what Brody said is the truth everything we heard about Zan&Ava were clues about their first meeting.
What happened when they were married and actually got the chance to know each other beyond the first impression? Was Ava his only wife? Or she was the official one while he had other concubines that could ensure him a heir if Ava couldn't give birth to one? Gosh we really don't know a thing
Maybe he was infatuated by her at the beginning but this doesn't mean that when the infatuation phase vanished their marriage actually worked. If Zan was selfish like Langley said then it's easy to assume the worst. and frankly by watching Kivar's "love" for Vilandra it seems to me that those people have a weird concept of love. We can't assume that what we call love is the same thing for them too. We really have no idea about those people, their culture, their religion, their morals. We can't assume that they were totally like us. Even in our world we have very different cultures
and again, we have to take into account that Kivar wasn't her enemy too. It isn't a tiny detail.



Max was more than just content with his life. He loved his life on earth and he didn't want to return home. Even Tess showing him memories (or mindwarping him. I never know with her) of his life with her and his life on Antar didn't make him want to go home. He was willing to go back for his child. That's it. It wasn't just that he was settled on earth. He found a home there with the Evans and with Liz. And it obviously didn't have anything to do with the fact that before Tess came into the picture, he had no memory of his past life


amen. I think that one of the main points in the show is the fact that Antar&Destiny (and everything Tess said/believed into basically) aren't a real thing. It's just words without any concreteness. It's legends without the facts.
While the people that Max&Co met in our planet and the ones that they love.. these people and these feelings are REAL and undeniable. Tess failed because she didn't have that and she lived her life according to legends and things that weren't real.

Max, Michael and Isabel always felt connected to each other. They always felt like a family when NO ONE told them that they had to feel like that. No one. Yet they never felt the same for Tess. She was there in the pods with them yet they totally forgot about her existence for 10 years, she had to manipulate them to make them notice her , to make them remember that she was one of them too. And at the beginning they even believed that she was Nacedo using a female body
Max and Isabel saw both Michael and Tess in the same moment. Yet they forgot about her while they MISSED Michael when he wasn't with them and they naturally recognized him when they saw him again.

I feel that everything about Tess reflects her power because most of the things that she always said were "just words" and illusions versus the facts and things about Max&Co that were real and proved with some concreteness. Things that contradicted what she had said.

For example at the beginning she talked about a supposed connection that she shared with Max and the fact that she would feel it if something would happen to him. But we never saw it.
In the same episode it was human Liz the one that realized that Max was in great danger so she went to Valenti. In Panacea only human Liz felt it when Max died and she's the one that saved his life more than once and she ultimately brought him back to life. Not to mention that the episodes arc could also show the fact that Max died but the memory of her kept his soul alive. Even after his body was a puddle of dust he didn't stop to love her. He died, came back to life and never stopped to love her, he didn't forget her. This is a fact. While everything about Zan&Ava's supposed love is just words contradicted by the facts. Again i think that this was one of the main messages in the show. The big difference between what is real and what is not.
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Sundae » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:21 pm

Coccy wrote:What happened in Off the menù is not 100% genuine IMO, in fact i think that the episode was a key
Brody believed that he was Larek, you should take into account that he was crazy and extremely confused. He basically had a brain damage that Max healed in the end of the episode.


Maybe…but I’m not buying that just because of it, you can't just dismiss everything he said as not being true.

Coccy wrote:Apparently Brody accessed to Larek's memories, if that was possible. Were those memories real? We don't know but i always found it extremely weird and suspicious that everything Larek remembered was the love life of his friend. Why he cared so much? Why he wanted to convince Max? what's the deal? He was so obsessed. He should have gotten memories about Larek's private life not Zan's.


Brody did access Larek's memories...remember the whole computer spiel, short circuit..power going out?

For the most part, I do think they were real. First he remembered Tess and Max from New York. That is the whole reason why he approached them and held them at gunpoint. He recognized them from the summit. He’s remembering Larek’s memories and he’s confused because he doesn’t know why he has all that information and it’s not making sense to him…but then he see’s Max (and something clicks).

Plus obviously he knew he was being abducted and that it was all alien related. He also knew bits and pieces that were not making sense to him before “off the menu” happened. He remembers being abducted…that he was sitting in his living room and then poof he was in NY. He remembered the warehouse, the meeting, he remembered Nicholas. <<< ALL before that thing short circuited him; I mean he was mapping it out on his computer and he’d been doing so for a while from the looks of it. But after he got short circuited and held everyone hostage, he also started listing out information he knew that he couldn’t comprehend, that Max is Max, but also Zan, he also knew what the octagon was, how it works, and how to use it. <<real enough information I think.

As far as why he remembered the love of his friend. Well the way I interpreted the scene is that Brody was confused. He had Larek’s memories inside of him, all this information that didn’t make sense and he couldn’t comprehend it. Everything around him was unfamiliar, it’s like he was Brody but stuck in Larek’s part of the Brain. That means…he recognized Larek’s memories but not his own and we saw that because he couldn’t remember his daughter or Maria bringing him sandwiches. He couldn’t remembered anything “Brody” only Larek. But I think the key to this scene was that everything around him was unfamiliar, he didn’t recognize anything and he didn’t know to how feel. But then he see’s Max…and finally something triggers. He recognizes Max (from the summit) and that’s he’s first form of familiarity and he latches on to it. Finally he gets something that can validate everything that’s happening to him. But how can you convince someone that keeps saying that you’re wrong? Max kept denying everything Brody was telling him…but if you know deep down it’s true, how do make the other person see it? By making them remember and so that once they remember, the person than can turn around and validate your feelings. That’s the reason he brought about Max’s past…he was trying to make Max remember…so that if Max remembered, it would be validation to the fact that he’s not crazy. Not because he’s obsessed with his friends love life, because BRODY is trying to validate what’s happening to him in that moment. But that’s just how I interpreted the scene.

Also everything Brody reveled in that scene I do think it was true. The octagon was on, so no one could use their powers. In that moment, Tess couldn’t have mindwrapped him. And even before he turned the octagon on…Tess tried, but she failed. Brody immediately told her not to try those mind games on him. (And this is an assumption from my part...but from the way Brody said that...it was as if Tess has tried to mindwarp Brody before or he knew about about Tess's abilities...that Larek put some controls on so that she couldn't mindwarp him...because as soon as Tess tried, he was able to kick her out of his mind)

Also all the memories Brody got were Larek’s…not Zan’s that you said. The scene he described, that was Larek’s memory. He was swimming with Zan remember? Just because he was there when Zan saw Ava…doesn’t mean he’s obsessed for it.


Clarifying the Brody/Larek thing was necessary for this part of the post.

When I wrote my post…I wasn’t talking about Earth at all. I wasn’t talking about the Dupes, or how Max and Tess are on Earth or really anything Earthy and maybe I should have made that clear. I was talking about Antar and who Zan and Ava were there and I was basing the information on unbiased information (non Tess, non Max) that we know…because it’s extremely questionable on both Max and Tess's part of how they feel about each other during various times throughout the seasons. This episode along with Control are really the only two episodes that reveal what Tess and Max were like on Antar by other people. Kal describing Zan as being selfish and not caring for those around him…and Brody saying that Zan thought she was the most beautiful girl he had ever seen. Yes it was attraction/lust whatever…but obviously, Ava can’t have been programmed if Zan thought she was beautiful. Attraction was there. And as far as the arranged marriage is concerned, to say that someone placed Tess right in front of Zan as being an arranged marriage is like calling all blind dates or dates that are set up by your friends, or introductions done by someone else as being arranged marriage and that’s not true. There could have been so many other girls there, but Zan zeroed into Ava and not someone else. I was merely arguing the point of Ava’s “connection” with Zan being watered down to being programmed or arranged when we have something that’s contradictory (and we may have a difference of opinion here). Even if it was arranged (which I don’t think it was) the things Tess did to everyone on Earth indicates a higher level of feeling (whether it be hurt/hate/revenge) than what can generate through a mutual arranged marriage set on some distant planet. Something must have happened for her to view Max in a light that produces those types of feelings. Love/jealousy on her part…and maybe high affection but not to the point of love on Zan’s part? (on antar)

I think you think that I’m arguing or questioning Max’s love for Liz on Earth. And that couldn’t be the furthest from the true. I like Max and Liz and do think they are soul mates, perfect for each other. I actually adore them together…but that doesn’t mean that I can’t see Ava and Zan together on Antar if they’re personalities were alike. And not to mention that Liz was never born when they were together. There is love and then there is love. I mean even in Departure, Liz asked Max, “do you love her” and what was Max’s response? “Not like I love you.” Why not just plain out say NO or say its “like” and not “love”. And this is coming from Max himself. He remembers…and that’s why I say Zan and Ava were in love. Sure…now that Liz is in the picture, that love is different, heck that love Max can now maybe even recognize as not being true love or even love at all…but during THAT time on Antar (where there was no Liz)…I think they were…and it may have very well have been misguided love too.

You said it yourself that you think Max and Zan are not the same. EXACTLY <<<< that was the whole idea behind my post. I even emphasized it in the last part of my post…that I was talking about ANTAR and not Earth.

And as far as the bullish. :lol: I should have picked better words…I had no idea I would get a strong response from many. But…in my defense even I knew there was a gray area. I said it was completely bullish but retracted it by saying “well somewhat bullish.” I realize that it may have not been the type of “love” we recognized or accept as “love” here on Earth…but it doesn’t make it any less that what it is either.
Last edited by Sundae on Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Sundae » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:45 pm

Cocogurl wrote:Max was more than just content with his life. He loved his life on earth and he didn't want to return home. Even Tess showing him memories (or mindwarping him. I never know with her) of his life with her and his life on Antar didn't make him want to go home. He was willing to go back for his child. That's it. It wasn't just that he was settled on earth. He found a home there with the Evans and with Liz. And it obviously didn't have anything to do with the fact that before Tess came into the picture, he had no memory of his past life.


I disagree with this. I don't think Max "loved" his life on Earth. I think he was merely content in the beginning. I think Isabel loved her life on earth, I think Michael was discontent with his life on earth and I think Max was just content.

If he had loved his life on earth he would have well...loved his life on earth in the way Isabel did. I mean look at Isabel, there was no question of how she felt about her parents, how she was involved with various school functions and had friends. Max was always shown as the reserved, quiet guy that didn't come out from behind the tree.

Max was very guarded...he was untrustworthy of everything around him. He was always quiet, reserved...not one to cause a scene. Isabel loved and trusted her parents so much to the point that she wanted to tell their parents of their secret. (she had always wanted to do that). Michael who was even the most un-trusting of them all...even relented a little and told Courtney where the granolith was. Max never gave an inch to anybody until he was put in between a rock and hard spot. He only divulged information when he was forced to, when the other person its too deeply involved to not know the truth. (i.e Liz and Valenti). I mean he may have loved Liz since she was nine, but he never made a move...he only did it when something forced him to make a move. (the gunshot or Valenti being at the compound when everyone else was there)

He was the middle one, the stationary child. He didn't move forward, nor backwards, he just was. Michael from the very beginning was the one portrayed as the one that was on a hunt for their past or anything alien...he was going backwards. Isabel was the one that didn't really care about the alien stuff but was into "human" things and she moved forward in that (social circles and her relationship with her parents). Max was just Max in the middle...he was happy where was. He didn't really care about his alien past, but he didn't make an effort to embrace his human side either. He was content just being there, being who he was.

Wasn't that what the "toy house" episode was all about? I don't really remember, but I remember Max saying at one point (talking to Diane) "I remember when we first came to the house. Isabel came and she instantly fell in love, found home...but I would just lie awake in bed and cry...because i wanted to go home." << or something along those lines.

I do however believe that once Max and Liz got together...that he truly became happy, that he did love his life from that point on. But before? meh...content. At least that's how see it.
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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Cocogurl » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:56 pm

I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree, Sundae.

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Re: Bad Dreamer moments, Tess's Appearances

Postby Coccy » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:53 am

Sundae wrote:Maybe…but I’m not buying that just because of it, you can't just dismiss everything he said as not being true.


yet you dismiss all the other informations/scenes that we got and use his words (alone) as the ultimate proof that the ones that don't believe in the supposed love between Zan&Ava are wrong :roll:
The problem is that the example that you provided is inconsistent. Beside, even if you believe that what he said is the truth that example can't be considered the ultimate proof that Zan&Ava loved each other like you're saying. Especially when you have other scenes that contradict this idea or make it doubtful.
Point is that we don't know what really happened on antar. People can't say that it was arranged marriage without any doubt but at the same time you can't assume that they were in love without any doubt. Because we don't know. Although the main point here is the fact that Max was forced to be with her. This point is always valid regardless what you think about the past life. It's valid because it's what happened to him in the show, in the present.

This is not dismissing that scene, this is looking at the whole picture. At least for me.
Your opinion is different but it doesn't mean that the others are blind or something. From the tone of your original post i got the impression that you implied that people use "selective memory" denying some facts yet you're doing the same thing IMO

Ps: you didn't reply to the part about what Michael said in "who died and made you a king". Was that scene the proof that Rath loved Vilandra?
because according to your logic it should be so i'm curious.


Brody did access Larek's memories...remember the whole computer spiel, short circuit..power going out?


The only sure thing there was Brody's brain damage (kinda) that Max healed.
Brody already knew about the abductions way before that scene so this, alone, doesn't prove that the memories about antar were real.
especially when the memory of Zan&Ava that Max saw inside his mind not only showed Zan&Ava as humans but what a coincidence it was one of Tess' mindwarps from the first season. How is possible that Brody remembered that illusion? How is possible? A mistake? Into another episode maybe but not the one that was placed there to make you suspicious about Tess. Sorry if i find it a bit odd. People always talk about what didn't make sense in roswell especially when it's about Tess killing Alex yet it seems to me that some nonsense things easily get a free pass and are glossed over.
Maybe Zan&Ava were so ugly that Larek thought that Jason Behr and Emilie DeRavin were prettier and could make a better memory?

Point is: I think that it's perfectly legit for people to find the episode suspicious because that was the purpose of the episode too. Remember what Maria said at the beginning, it was placed there for a reason.


As far as why he remembered the love of his friend. Well the way I interpreted the scene is that Brody was confused.


if he was so confused then we have one more reason to not find him a reliable source of informations, don't you think?


Not because he’s obsessed with his friends love life, because BRODY is trying to validate what’s happening to him in that moment. But that’s just how I interpreted the scene.


like Cocogurl previously said he could have talked about Larek's friendship with Zan. In order to do what you said (make them admit that he wasn't crazy) he didn't need to do what he did. He could have talked about other memories too, memories about the fact that Max had cared about HIM and they were friends, for example.
It seemed that Larek had no personal life because the only memories he shared with Brody were the ones about Zan's love life.
It's not believable for me. Beside, in the other scenes/episodes it didn't seem to me that Larek cared about Max's personal life so much, he was more concerned about him being the king and them being friends in the other life. Larek's purpose when he previously abducted Brody surely wasn't to play cupid with Max and Tess. I think that Zan loving Ava or not was like Larek's least problem. It was never the reason of why he had previously abducted Brody.

Also everything Brody reveled in that scene I do think it was true. The octagon was on, so no one could use their powers. In that moment, Tess couldn’t have mindwrapped him.


but she could do it before (even before she went to Max and gave him the gift, for example) he activated that thing and when Max healed him and they were free to use their powers.
It's not that they showed her mindwarping Alex when she used him for months.

I'm not saying that her mindwarping Brody is a fact. I'm just saying that you can't be sure that she didn't mindwarp him especially when the memory that Max got from Brody was one of her mindwarps from the first season.
Point is that it's not easy to see what is real or not. (i even think that it's like that on purpose) It's not blaming everything on the mindwarps but it's legit to have some doubts about the genuineness of some scenes where she's involved :roll:
the truth is always in the middle. I don't think that everything was a mindwarp but at the same time i can't find it believable that nothing was a mindwarp and everything was 100% genuine. Especially knowing that she had a plan.


And even before he turned the octagon on…Tess tried, but she failed. Brody immediately told her not to try those mind games on him. (And this is an assumption from my part...but from the way Brody said that...it was as if Tess has tried to mindwarp Brody before or he knew about about Tess's abilities...that Larek put some controls on so that she couldn't mindwarp him...because as soon as Tess tried, he was able to kick her out of his mind)


Alex realized it too when she was trying to mindwarp him again because she had mindwarped him before and because his brain was a mess after all the mindwarps. In fact Tess wasn't able to mindwarp Alex when he died, she tried so hard that it damaged his brain and it killed him. Just saying.
also, like you said, Brody knew who she was and maybe he simply assumed that she was trying to use her powers on him.


Anyway, quoting Brody's phrases alone and omit the rest may be necessary for your POV but you took things out of context changing the point IMO
you were replying to the fact that people call Max/Tess forced and for you it isn't true yet even the scene that you quoted is just another example of Max being forced to love her just because other people says so and they try to convince him about it
and Max's answers/reactions that you omitted made it even more obvious in that scene too.

The point (that some people made in this thread) still stands because that episode is just another example to add to the long list of scenes where it seemed that Max HAD to love her and people tried to convince him about it = they're forced.
even if Zan&Ava loved each other (and we have no evidence about it) it doesn't mean that Max must feel the same at any cost. Regardless what happened in the other life M&T never shared a natural and mutual connection. Nothing was spontaneous. It was always forced by her or other things including that episode.



Even if it was arranged (which I don’t think it was) the things Tess did to everyone on Earth indicates a higher level of feeling (whether it be hurt/hate/revenge) than what can generate through a mutual arranged marriage set on some distant planet.


She wanted to deliver Max, Michael and Isabel to Kivar who wanted to kill them. She killed Alex after she had manipulated him for months. Whoa that's love!

The deal was made way before Max was born. Way before Tess met him and she saw that he didn't love her. And she started to work for the deal (when she started to mindwarp Alex) way before she and Max slept together. Months before it.
It's possible that Zan wasn't the great husband that Tess portrayed when she was trying to get in Max's pants. If things between Ava and Zan weren't great then it makes sense that Kivar thought that Tess could have betrayed Max. Kivar wasn't her enemy. She said that. Unless she met him on earth and we didn't see it i have to think that Kivar wasn't her enemy because he wasn't Ava's enemy (since she considered herself like Ava) or maybe she was crazy and masochistic and she betrayed Max and the others without any reason, just because she was pure evil.



I mean even in Departure, Liz asked Max, “do you love her” and what was Max’s response? “Not like I love you.” Why not just plain out say NO or say its “like” and not “love”. And this is coming from Max himself. He remembers…and that’s why I say Zan and Ava were in love.


Max cared about Tess because she was there when no one was and because she was the mother of his son. In those circumstances it's obvious why he cared about her. The fact that he cared about her under those circumstances doesn't prove that Zan&Ava were in love. He didn't care about her because he remembered her or because Zan and Ava loved each other (although that idea, real or not, could influence things a bit since that was what Tess always used in order to convince him that they had to be together and it was their destiny). He never said that he remembered loving her and he was with her for that reason. On the contrary even the memories, fake or not, didn't make him love her and she knew it.

as for the infamous scene from departure. I feel that the phrase is often taken out of context and it's exaggerated. It seems to me that the meaning of "not like" is often dismissed just like all the other scenes that confirmed the fact that he only cared about Tess but he didn't really love her and she herself knew it and admitted it more than once, even in that episode.
Max could've replied "yes i love her" too, you know. He didn't say "no" but he if we want to play with the words he still used a negation. Not like = it (his feelings) doesn't possess the characteristics of the kind of love that Liz was referring to (call it romantic love, true love etc etc).
Liz didn't ask him if he loved HER (Liz) yet he basically managed to tell her "i love YOU", he managed to tell her that he only loved her that way.
For me that phrase means "i care about her but i'm in love with you" .
The only words that Max used when he directly described his feelings for Tess were: attraction and care. He never directly said that he loved Tess. He never told her i love you.
Beside, as soon as Max saw her real colors he easily got rid of her and stopped to care about her and her safety in a matter of minutes while it took him a year to start to accept that Liz had really betrayed him in TEOTW, for example. Using your logic if his feelings in the present are the same that Zan felt on antar then his reaction when Tess betrayed him and the fact that she herself knew and admitted that he didn't really love her only further proves that Zan&Ava's supposed love was really weak and it wasn't real love but only care or something influenced by the circumstances. Not to mention the fact itself that Tess betrayed him and wanted to deliver him to his enemy.

we also have the dupes. Again, Zan and Ava were together and they "remembered" yet she knew that he was awaiting for someonelse and he didn't really love her back


You said it yourself that you think Max and Zan are not the same. EXACTLY <<<< that was the whole idea behind my post. I even emphasized it in the last part of my post…that I was talking about ANTAR and not Earth.


excuse me but aren't you contradicting yourself? (especially with the part of your post that i quoted above )

I disagree with this. I don't think Max "loved" his life on Earth. I think he was merely content in the beginning. I think Isabel loved her life on earth, I think Michael was discontent with his life on earth and I think Max was just content.

If he had loved his life on earth he would have well...loved his life on earth in the way Isabel did. I mean look at Isabel, there was no question of how she felt about her parents, how she was involved with various school functions and had friends. Max was always shown as the reserved, quiet guy that didn't come out from behind the tree.


so Max didn't love his life on earth just because he didn't live a fake normal life like Isabel did? with all those fake friends always pretending to be who she wasn't? Isabel who didn't want to love because she didn't trust people and didn't want them to really know her


I mean he may have loved Liz since she was nine, but he never made a move...he only did it when something forced him to make a move. (the gunshot or Valenti being at the compound when everyone else was there)


well he also made the reversed connection with her when no one forced him, he didn't have to do it.
He gave her his soul making her see and feel all his inner feelings without hiding a thing. It was intimate. And he did that when he didn't think that she could have loved him back, he had everything to lose but he trusted her unconditionally.
It seemed to me that he had always wanted to tell her the truth (and he said it too) Michael and Isabel were the ones that didn't trust her and the humans. In a way i think that Max was more open to the humans but he was forced to hide his feelings for obvious reasons.
Isabel only made people see what she wanted them to see. She didn't feel that they could accept her real self so she pretended to be who she wasn't (a cold shallow girl like her "friends" in the first season)
personally i always thought that Max and Michael were more realistic while Isabel was in denial most of the time, she desperately wanted to be normal and pretended to be normal. While Max and Michael accepted their condition and instead of having fake relationships/friendships like Isabel they preferred to not have them at all. In fact they started a relationship with Liz and Maria only when they knew the truth about them.
Isabel was different. She preferred to have relationships with the guys that didn't know the truth about her and she refused to have one with the only guy who could really love her (Alex).
Even with Jesse she convinced herself that everything could work between them and they could be a normal married couple, she wanted to prove that the others were wrong and she could make it work even if she knew that she was hiding something too important and her secret was inevitably tainting their relationship.


Wasn't that what the "toy house" episode was all about? I don't really remember, but I remember Max saying at one point (talking to Diane) "I remember when we first came to the house. Isabel came and she instantly fell in love, found home...but I would just lie awake in bed and cry...because i wanted to go home." << or something along those lines.


he was a scared kid who believed that his parents had abandoned him. He didn't know that he was an alien, he didn't know that his "home" was antar. He felt different but he didn't know who he was. He had nothing but Isabel, those were the first days of his life. But 10 years after that Max had a life.
It's not that he wanted to go on antar. He didn't even know that it existed.
I does have nothing to do with him being happy about his life on earth.
I remember when in graduation he said, in the speech, "thank you roswell for giving me a home"
home is not a place, it's the people that loved him. That was the point.
that was the reason of why he didn't want to leave earth even if his life wasn't perfect here.

But before? meh...content. At least that's how see it.


It's not that he considered antar his home and was willing to go there. So i don't understand your point.
He considered earth (not the place, the people) his home not antar and he didn't want to leave it. Memories or not. The memories didn't change his feelings about earth and the ones that he loved.

He loved his parents, he loved his friends and he loved Liz. He loved the life he had on earth because well...it was HIS life. Of course Max is an alien and this always forced him to be wary.
What he didn't love about his life was the fact that they were always in danger because of their diversity. This is only natural. It's a feeling that we can understand even if we aren't aliens like him. I don't think that you can find a person in the world that is 100% happy about his/her life.
But one thing is being unhappy about the fact that the ones that you love are in danger, another is being unhappy because you want to be into another place. And this is not what Max felt.
This is what *Tess* felt. Tess wasn't happy about her life on earth because she wanted to go on antar. Max and the others didn't feel the same (even Michael. I think that he just wanted to belong, to have a purpose. It's not that he missed antar itself.) this was her problem and this is the reason of why she mindwarped Max making him believe that his son couldn't survive here so he was forced to leave earth.
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