Maybe…but I’m not buying that just because of it, you can't just dismiss everything he said as not being true.
yet you dismiss all the other informations/scenes that we got and use his words (alone) as the ultimate proof that the ones that don't believe in the supposed love between Zan&Ava are wrong
The problem is that the example that you provided is inconsistent. Beside, even if you believe that what he said is the truth that example can't be considered the ultimate proof that Zan&Ava loved each other like you're saying. Especially when you have other scenes that contradict this idea or make it doubtful.
Point is that we don't know what really happened on antar. People can't say that it was arranged marriage without any doubt but at the same time you can't assume that they were in love without any doubt. Because we don't know. Although the main point here is the fact that Max was forced to be with her. This point is always valid regardless what you think about the past life. It's valid because it's what happened to him in the show, in the present.
This is not dismissing that scene, this is looking at the whole picture. At least for me.
Your opinion is different but it doesn't mean that the others are blind or something. From the tone of your original post i got the impression that you implied that people use "selective memory" denying some facts yet you're doing the same thing IMO
Ps: you didn't reply to the part about what Michael said in "who died and made you a king". Was that scene the proof that Rath loved Vilandra?
because according to your logic it should be so i'm curious.
Brody did access Larek's memories...remember the whole computer spiel, short circuit..power going out?
The only sure thing there was Brody's brain damage (kinda) that Max healed.
Brody already knew about the abductions way before that scene so this, alone, doesn't prove that the memories about antar were real.
especially when the memory of Zan&Ava that Max saw inside his mind not only showed Zan&Ava as humans but what a coincidence it was one of Tess' mindwarps from the first season. How is possible that Brody remembered that illusion? How is possible? A mistake? Into another episode maybe but not the one that was placed there to make you suspicious about Tess. Sorry if i find it a bit odd. People always talk about what didn't make sense in roswell especially when it's about Tess killing Alex yet it seems to me that some nonsense things easily get a free pass and are glossed over.
Maybe Zan&Ava were so ugly that Larek thought that Jason Behr and Emilie DeRavin were prettier and could make a better memory?
Point is: I think that it's perfectly legit for people to find the episode suspicious because that was the purpose of the episode too. Remember what Maria said at the beginning, it was placed there for a reason.
As far as why he remembered the love of his friend. Well the way I interpreted the scene is that Brody was confused.
if he was so confused then we have one more reason to not find him a reliable source of informations, don't you think?
Not because he’s obsessed with his friends love life, because BRODY is trying to validate what’s happening to him in that moment. But that’s just how I interpreted the scene.
like Cocogurl previously said he could have talked about Larek's friendship with Zan. In order to do what you said (make them admit that he wasn't crazy) he didn't need to do what he did. He could have talked about other memories too, memories about the fact that Max had cared about HIM and they were friends, for example.
It seemed that Larek had no personal life because the only memories he shared with Brody were the ones about Zan's love life.
It's not believable for me. Beside, in the other scenes/episodes it didn't seem to me that Larek cared about Max's personal life so much, he was more concerned about him being the king and them being friends in the other life. Larek's purpose when he previously abducted Brody surely wasn't to play cupid with Max and Tess. I think that Zan loving Ava or not was like Larek's least problem. It was never the reason of why he had previously abducted Brody.
Also everything Brody reveled in that scene I do think it was true. The octagon was on, so no one could use their powers. In that moment, Tess couldn’t have mindwrapped him.
but she could do it before (even before she went to Max and gave him the gift, for example) he activated that thing and when Max healed him and they were free to use their powers.
It's not that they showed her mindwarping Alex when she used him for months.
I'm not saying that her mindwarping Brody is a fact. I'm just saying that you can't be sure that she didn't mindwarp him especially when the memory that Max got from Brody was one of her mindwarps from the first season.
Point is that it's not easy to see what is real or not. (i even think that it's like that on purpose) It's not blaming everything on the mindwarps but it's legit to have some doubts about the genuineness of some scenes where she's involved
the truth is always in the middle. I don't think that everything was a mindwarp but at the same time i can't find it believable that nothing was a mindwarp and everything was 100% genuine. Especially knowing that she had a plan.
And even before he turned the octagon on…Tess tried, but she failed. Brody immediately told her not to try those mind games on him. (And this is an assumption from my part...but from the way Brody said that...it was as if Tess has tried to mindwarp Brody before or he knew about about Tess's abilities...that Larek put some controls on so that she couldn't mindwarp him...because as soon as Tess tried, he was able to kick her out of his mind)
Alex realized it too when she was trying to mindwarp him again because
she had mindwarped him before and because his brain was a mess after all the mindwarps. In fact Tess wasn't able to mindwarp Alex when he died, she tried so hard that it damaged his brain and it killed him. Just saying.
also, like you said, Brody knew who she was and maybe he simply assumed that she was trying to use her powers on him.
Anyway, quoting Brody's phrases alone and omit the rest may be necessary for your POV but you took things out of context changing the point IMO
you were replying to the fact that people call Max/Tess forced and for you it isn't true yet even the scene that you quoted is just another example of Max being forced to love her just because other people says so and they try to convince him about it
and Max's answers/reactions that you omitted
made it even more obvious in that scene too
The point (that some people made in this thread) still stands because that episode is just another example to add to the long list of scenes where it seemed that Max HAD to love her and people tried to convince him
about it = they're forced.
if Zan&Ava loved each other (and we have no evidence about it) it doesn't mean that Max must feel the same at any cost. Regardless what happened in the other life M&T never shared a natural and mutual connection. Nothing was spontaneous. It was always forced by her or other things including that episode.
Even if it was arranged (which I don’t think it was) the things Tess did to everyone on Earth indicates a higher level of feeling (whether it be hurt/hate/revenge) than what can generate through a mutual arranged marriage set on some distant planet.
She wanted to deliver Max, Michael and Isabel to Kivar who wanted to kill them. She killed Alex after she had manipulated him for months. Whoa that's love!
The deal was made way before Max was born. Way before Tess met him and she saw that he didn't love her. And she started to work for the deal (when she started to mindwarp Alex) way before she and Max slept together. Months before it.
It's possible that Zan wasn't the great husband that Tess portrayed when she was trying to get in Max's pants. If things between Ava and Zan weren't great then it makes sense that Kivar thought that Tess could have betrayed Max. Kivar wasn't her enemy. She said that. Unless she met him on earth and we didn't see it i have to think that Kivar wasn't her enemy because he wasn't Ava's enemy
(since she considered herself like Ava) or maybe she was crazy and masochistic and she betrayed Max and the others without any reason, just because she was pure evil.
I mean even in Departure, Liz asked Max, “do you love her” and what was Max’s response? “Not like I love you.” Why not just plain out say NO or say its “like” and not “love”. And this is coming from Max himself. He remembers…and that’s why I say Zan and Ava were in love.
Max cared about Tess because she was there when no one was and because she was the mother of his son. In those circumstances it's obvious why he cared about her. The fact that he cared about her under those circumstances doesn't prove that Zan&Ava were in love. He didn't care about her because he remembered her or because Zan and Ava loved each other (although that idea, real or not, could influence things a bit since that was what Tess always used in order to convince him that they had to be together and it was their destiny). He never said that he remembered loving her and he was with her for that reason. On the contrary even the memories, fake or not, didn't make him love her and she knew it.
as for the infamous scene from departure. I feel that the phrase is often taken out of context and it's exaggerated. It seems to me that the meaning of "not like" is often dismissed just like all the other scenes that confirmed the fact that he only cared about Tess but he didn't really love her and she herself
knew it and admitted it more than once, even in that episode.
Max could've replied "yes i love her" too, you know. He didn't say "no" but he if we want to play with the words he still used a negation. Not like = it (his feelings) doesn't possess the characteristics of the kind of love that Liz was referring to (call it romantic love, true love etc etc).
Liz didn't ask him if he loved HER (Liz) yet he basically managed to tell her "i love YOU", he managed to tell her that he only loved her that way
For me that phrase means "i care about her but i'm in love with you" .
The only words that Max used when he directly described his feelings for Tess were: attraction and care
. He never directly said that he loved Tess. He never told her i love you.
Beside, as soon as Max saw her real colors he easily got rid of her and stopped to care about her and her safety in a matter of minutes while it took him a year to start to accept that Liz had really betrayed him in TEOTW, for example. Using your logic if his feelings in the present are the same that Zan felt on antar then his reaction when Tess betrayed him and the fact that she herself knew and admitted that he didn't really love her only further proves that Zan&Ava's supposed love was really weak and it wasn't real love but only care or something influenced by the circumstances. Not to mention the fact itself that Tess betrayed him and wanted to deliver him to his enemy.
we also have the dupes. Again, Zan and Ava were together and they "remembered" yet she knew that he was awaiting for someonelse and he didn't really love her back
You said it yourself that you think Max and Zan are not the same. EXACTLY <<<< that was the whole idea behind my post. I even emphasized it in the last part of my post…that I was talking about ANTAR and not Earth.
excuse me but aren't you contradicting yourself? (especially with the part of your post that i quoted above )
I disagree with this. I don't think Max "loved" his life on Earth. I think he was merely content in the beginning. I think Isabel loved her life on earth, I think Michael was discontent with his life on earth and I think Max was just content.
If he had loved his life on earth he would have well...loved his life on earth in the way Isabel did. I mean look at Isabel, there was no question of how she felt about her parents, how she was involved with various school functions and had friends. Max was always shown as the reserved, quiet guy that didn't come out from behind the tree.
so Max didn't love his life on earth just because he didn't live a fake normal life like Isabel did? with all those fake friends always pretending to be who she wasn't? Isabel who didn't want to love because she didn't trust people and didn't want them to really know her
I mean he may have loved Liz since she was nine, but he never made a move...he only did it when something forced him to make a move. (the gunshot or Valenti being at the compound when everyone else was there)
well he also made the reversed connection with her when no one forced him, he didn't have to do it.
He gave her his soul making her see and feel all his inner feelings without hiding a thing. It was intimate. And he did that when he didn't think that she could have loved him back, he had everything to lose but he trusted her unconditionally.
It seemed to me that he had always wanted to tell her the truth (and he said it too) Michael and Isabel were the ones that didn't trust her and the humans. In a way i think that Max was more open to the humans but he was forced to hide his feelings for obvious reasons.
Isabel only made people see what she wanted them to see. She didn't feel that they could accept her real self so she pretended to be who she wasn't (a cold shallow girl like her "friends" in the first season)
personally i always thought that Max and Michael were more realistic while Isabel was in denial most of the time, she desperately wanted to be normal and pretended to be normal. While Max and Michael accepted their condition and instead of having fake relationships/friendships like Isabel they preferred to not have them at all. In fact they started a relationship with Liz and Maria only when they knew the truth about them.
Isabel was different. She preferred to have relationships with the guys that didn't know the truth about her and she refused to have one with the only guy who could really love her (Alex).
Even with Jesse she convinced herself that everything could work between them and they could be a normal married couple, she wanted to prove that the others were wrong and she could make it work even if she knew that she was hiding something too important and her secret was inevitably tainting their relationship.
Wasn't that what the "toy house" episode was all about? I don't really remember, but I remember Max saying at one point (talking to Diane) "I remember when we first came to the house. Isabel came and she instantly fell in love, found home...but I would just lie awake in bed and cry...because i wanted to go home." << or something along those lines.
he was a scared kid who believed that his parents had abandoned him. He didn't know that he was an alien, he didn't know that his "home" was antar. He felt different but he didn't know who he was. He had nothing but Isabel, those were the first days of his life. But 10 years after that Max had a life.
It's not that he wanted to go on antar. He didn't even know that it existed.
I does have nothing to do with him being happy about his life on earth.
I remember when in graduation he said, in the speech, "thank you roswell for giving me a home"
home is not a place, it's the people that loved him. That was the point.
that was the reason of why he didn't want to leave earth even if his life wasn't perfect here.
But before? meh...content. At least that's how see it.
It's not that he considered antar his home and was willing to go there. So i don't understand your point.
He considered earth (not the place, the people) his home not antar and he didn't want to leave it. Memories or not. The memories didn't change his feelings about earth and the ones that he loved.
He loved his parents, he loved his friends and he loved Liz. He loved the life he had on earth because well...it was HIS life. Of course Max is an alien and this always forced him to be wary.
What he didn't love about his life was the fact that they were always in danger because of their diversity. This is only natural. It's a feeling that we can understand even if we aren't aliens like him. I don't think that you can find a person in the world that is 100% happy about his/her life.
But one thing is being unhappy about the fact that the ones that you love are in danger, another is being unhappy because you want to be into another place. And this is not what Max felt.
This is what *Tess* felt. Tess wasn't happy about her life on earth because she wanted to go on antar. Max and the others didn't feel the same (even Michael. I think that he just wanted to belong, to have a purpose. It's not that he missed antar itself.) this was her problem and this is the reason of why she mindwarped Max making him believe that his son couldn't survive here so he was forced to leave earth.