Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

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Were MAx and Liz good for each other?

yes, definantly
71
69%
absolutely not
5
5%
a little bit of both
27
26%
 
Total votes: 103

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Postby rie482 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:13 pm

I said no, because... In the end they tore each other hearts out. But a love like that does that. It's not good for you, but in the end it's everything.
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Postby bluebballjumper » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:02 pm

So, Season 1 Max/Liz are very good for each other!


Yes I do agree that Max and Liz were good for each other in season one. Max started to step out from "behind the tree", and Liz felt the whole soulmates thing. Also at this point they are still acting like high schoolers and such, but after season 2, they skip straight to actual age of the actors as if they were already through college. I agree that the writers did a terrible job with Max and Tess and that season 1 Max would have never slept with her.[/quote]
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Postby bluebballjumper » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:02 pm

So, Season 1 Max/Liz are very good for each other!


Yes I do agree that Max and Liz were good for each other in season one. Max started to step out from "behind the tree", and Liz felt the whole soulmates thing. Also at this point they are still acting like high schoolers and such, but after season 2, they skip straight to actual age of the actors as if they were already through college. I agree that the writers did a terrible job with Max and Tess and that season 1 Max would have never slept with her.
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Postby Jessibelle47 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:36 am

I'm sure that Liz could have walked away many times but in the end she decided that she just couldn't live without Max. Therefore I very much think that whether they were good for each other or not didn't really matter because the love they had for each other was more important than all they went through.

Good Stuff:

1. Liz would not be alive if Max wasn't in love with her.
2. Liz would have never known what it was to be in love, true love.
3. Max would have never told anyone his secret.
4. Max and Liz's relationship caused all these other relationships to happen.

I don't agree:

1. Who's to say that there relationship was the cause of him and Tess sleeping together?
Last edited by Jessibelle47 on Thu May 01, 2008 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

Postby FSU/MSW-94 » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:38 pm

Zanity wrote:Yes Max and Liz were good for each other...

bluebballjumper wrote:1) Liz was all set on going to Harvard and graduating first in her class, because of her relationship with Max, she didn't even get a chance to go to college.


Liz couldn't go to college because the FBI was trying to kill her... The FBI was trying to kill her because she demonstrated having powers.... She had powers becaus Max healed her.

Hence the choice here is dead, or alive and on the run (not going to college) So Max made things better for Liz

bluebballjumper wrote:2) Because of the whole relationship, Max became a cheater and a teenage father.


1- Max did not become a cheater, because you can't cheat on someone who a) Broke up with you b) Made you believe they'd moved on and slept with someone else c) Keeps insisting you can't be anything more than friends d) Literally tells you to be with the third person involved

2- Tess was responsible for Max becoming a teenage father -- not Liz

bluebballjumper wrote:3) Both Max and Liz ended up in jail after holding up a store.


Ok this is a valid point, but this happened because they were trying to deal with the consequences of Tess having Max's son

Bottom line... Max and Liz were good for each other.... Tess was bad for both of them.


A huge Ditto and A-Men here :D
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Re: Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

Postby KiaraAlexisKlay » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:43 pm

I loved Max and Liz in Season 1. Max had integrity and Liz while she was in the "Alien Abyss" was still her own person. They were also in serious infatuation with each other, if not love. So Season 1 they were very good together, and Liz did the honorable thing during 'Destiny' by trying not to interfere with Max's alien side because she understood that if Max were to be King of an alien planet, he couldn't do that if he had a Human wife who couldn't fathom the alien stuff since she's not alien.

Season 2 was where things started to get iffy. We already knew Max had a temper and liked to be in control of things, Toy House showed us that, but it wasn't in any big quantity, and usually it was a scared reaction to whatever it was that was going on at the time. Season 2 is where I think the writers started to give up on the show, and so they magnified little character traits out of proportion (i.e. Max's protectiveness and devotion to Liz now became extremely obsessive and almost abusive).

Tess wasn't a bad character per se, she had so much potential. I was so mad that the writers scapegoated her as the 'bad guy'. Seriously, I think she was just misunderstood, having never had dealings with humans and human emotions due to being around only Nasedo and repressing any 'good' feelings. It must have been hard for her, to hear all about this great family she was going to get, and this great love, who would complete her and that she wouldn't be alone anymore...then to find out that her family didn't even remember her, much less the great 'love' of her past life didn't love her...he loved a Human. They could have used that for some great storylines, and if they weren't so focused on her being Liz's 'rival' I think Liz and Tess could have been friends, allies and understanding at best. Because if Tess were truly a Queen, she'd have her families's best interests at heart, and want them to be happy.

Max was wrong to keep hounding Liz when she was trying to do the right thing in letting him go, but Liz was also at fault for not trying to make her position more clear. And just because someone decides to 'let' someone go doesn't mean you still don't feel things for that person. Of course Liz is going to feel hurt and jealous over Max when they weren't 'together' because she still loved and cared for him, and what happens to him and the others. She just realized that she wasn't what he needed, someone like him.

Liz was wrong to not have gone to Max or Tess or Michael and Isabel with the truth when Future Max came along. So many things could have been avoided all together with that. Because the core of Max and Liz's relationship was that they trusted one another, and the writers took that away in Season 2. She did what she had to because of what Future Max told her. Was it right? Hell no, but you know what, she was only human. We humans make huge fuck ups but that's just life.

I personally don't think that Max would have slept with Tess by choice...I think he was hurt, and I don't agree that Max would believe that Liz would sleep with Kyle. Maybe if he wasn't coming up to her window like some stalker he wouldn't have seen the 'compromising' position. Technically, as a lot of people are wont to point out, Liz and Max weren't 'together' when she staged sleeping with Kyle, so Max shouldn't have been so betrayed. If a girl says give her space, it means give her space! And I can't believe Max would do a complete one eighty and say that Alex was suicidal...it doesn't make sense!

The writers kept changing Max's personality so much in Season 2 it confused me...this arrogant asshole with player 'accidental' intentions was not the honorable, loyal Max of Season 1 that we all fell in love with.

Season 3 was just a horror that didn't bear repeating. I find it hard to believe that Max and Liz, the two tactical and strategic members of the group, would do such things. I try to avoid Season 3 whenever possible.

So yes, they were bad for each other but there was also a lot of good that they brought to each other. If it weren't for Max, Liz would be dead. If it weren't for Liz and her thinking, Sheriff Valenti would have caught on to them when they wanted to run, and Topolsky would have went after Michael. In the end, while some parts of their relationship just plain sucked, I think they were a bit of both. Good and bad. A real relationship.

Go figure.
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Re: Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

Postby Tears_of_Mercury » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:34 pm

KiaraAlexisKlay, I do agree with many of your points.

As far as the "Destiny" issue goes, I've always been a little iffy on what exactly was going through Liz's mind. In fandom it seems like she either gets sainted for "respecting Max's alien side and destiny" or she gets slammed for "abandoning him after the most traumatic experience of his life just because she can't deal with her immature jealousy." I personally always thought that the huge thing that most people overlooked was that Liz had been abducted by Nasedo, watched him blow up a gas station, dump a dead body, and had gotten flashes of dead bodies and just general creepiness from him - and then she probably also suffered from mild hypothermia and moderate to severe dehydration and exhaustion after helping Max escape from Eagle Rock. Plus, she was being told repeatedly by a variety of sources that she didn't belong with Max -- something that she had already been beaten over the head with by Isabel, Michael, and at times Maria and Max himself. So I'm really not sure if Liz even had her head screwed on straight when she made that decision, or what was going through her mind when she decided to go to Florida. The whole issue (as well as every other freakin' issue) was dealt with horridly in season two.

As far as the abusive comments go, I won't argue that Max has displayed violent and controlling tendencies - but then let's look at some of the other characters:

*Michael grabs Maria, and not always gently, at various points in season one. He also completely manhandles Tess in MTTM.

*Maria is pretty much always berating Michael by late season one and early season two, a trend that continues on - and if I'm not mistaken, she slaps or hits him more than once. I don't think this should be cancelled out because it was "justified" or "cute" or because she was a girl - if Max had hit Liz after he found her in bed with Kyle, everyone would have been calling for his head.

*Tess... well, let's not even go there.

*Kyle spends the better part of season one obsessed with Liz - he follows her, spies on her, and makes of point of verbally attacking her more than once. Are his actions always scary/bad or controlling? No. Were they always uncalled for? Hells no. But that doesn't negate the fact that the writers played on a darker, disturbing part of Kyle that might have been lurking under the surface. Of course, this pretty much had disappeared by the end of season two - but that was the Great Season of Character Rewrites. (Like Tess in MTTM having no idea that Nasedo had ever killed anyone or planned to and constantly invading Max's - and debatably possibly Isabel and Michael's - heads to the point it almost could be classified as a lesser form of mindrape. Yet in the beginning of season two, everyone has forgiven her because she helped rescue Max, and Isabel in Surprise talks about how "guilty" she feels for not trusting Tess and welcoming her with open arms. Then Tess later goes on about how Nasedo made a deal with Khivar to deliver up her supposed family - and if this is true, for her to have known about it long enough before he died to put the plans in action, she should have had no doubts that he was a killer or would not hesitate to kill in the future. She also, in FAAAB, tries to pass off her behavior to Kyle as a result of growing up with "a sick and twisted killer." Geesh, make up your mind JK.)

*Even the way that Alex treated Liz in season one - trying to emotionally manipulate her into giving information she wasn't ready to by threatening to end their friendship, despite the fact that he didn't encourage honesty at all when he constantly did whatever she requested, no questions asked. Now, a lot of this came from his legitimate feelings of abandonment, betrayal, and just the general immaturity of a teenage boy -- but then, the same can be said of Max in season two, who was only eleven or twelve years old.

The great paradox of Max and Liz in season two was that because Liz trusted Max so completely - or, let's rephrase: Future Max so completely - she was willing to completely ruin the foundation of their relationship, destroying the trust between them by lying consistently. I think a lot of the ways that they were "bad for" each other or a lot of the problems that people see with their relationship after season one were a byproduct of their circumstances (AKA crappy plot devices the writers put forth for drama) and the fact that as adolescents, with crazy hormones and next to no relationship or life experience, they were dealing with a love as strong and powerful as theirs.

I do agree that most of season three was a crapfest. But the writing had just gone down the tubes, and even the awful stuff that was done to M/L and M/M, if it had been written and played right, could have kept the characters believable, sympathetic, and regained some of the rootability the CC ships lost after the first season. That's just not how things went down, and I don't really think of it as the character's faults or the actor's faults. They really weren't given much to work with.

I am curious - and please don't take this as an attack, because it's not intended to be - about your signature. You list pretty much every Liz ship except Max and Liz - and I actually remember reading the beginning of your Supernatural X-over, where Liz realized that she'd fallen in love with Alex after his death. (I just couldn't really stomach that idea or pairing - but you have a wonderful writing style and you did a good job with it, so major kudos to you. :) I doubt I would have read as far in as I did if it had been a lot of other authors.) Some of your comments here make it seem like you ship M/L, some obviously make it seem like you don't... so I guess I'm just wondering what your personal position on them is? It's very rare to see a Dreamer who ships any other Liz or Max ships, with the possible exception of Awakened Dreamer.

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Re: Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

Postby Coccy » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:46 am

Tears_of_Mercury i agree with everything you said especially the part about how ALL the characters (Liz too) were abusive sometimes
we're all like that sometimes this doesn't mean someone is automatically abusive in general. And Max isn't. Only some examples into certain occasions can't change the character itself. :roll: but it seems that when it's about Max only one example can delete everything :roll: this is a very old story into this fandom... people notice certain flaws and mistakes only when the character involved is Max (or Liz), the others are all angels who did no wrongs or when they did people justify them.


i believe that Max and Liz were good for each other because as soulmates it's pretty inevitable. They complete each other and when they aren't together they lose their balance, they're incomplete and unhappy. put them apart is cruel :lol: not to mention that they deserved to be together so much and they proved their love for each other a lot. It's not casual how most of the bad things that happened to Max they happened when he wasn't with Liz and we can say the same thing about Liz because when she wasn't with him she was unhappy and when he died she started to do what she never did.
They saved each other's life many times, at one point (chant down babylon) he even did let himself die for her and then she brought him back with a kiss. they're each other life. they were meant to be.
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Re: Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

Postby KiaraAlexisKlay » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:33 pm

I actually started out Dreamer. I know, all my friends in the crossovers and Awakened Dreamer cringe, but I was a full on Dreamer for Season 1 and the beginning of Season 2.

And I'm not afraid to read or like a Dreamer fic if it's well written. Some of my fave stories and authors are Dreamers, I've even written some Dreamer fics that I have yet to get off the editing floor. And you do have great points on all the characters, I was just focusing in on the Max-Liz aspect.

I have nothing against characters that are flawed. Real life is flawed. There's no getting around that, and I have more problem and disgust with characters who are too 'perfect' or too extreme in a certain stereotypical trait that they are unbelievable. And I try my hardest to write my own characterizations as real as possible in the scenarios I put them in.

I would agree that Max and Liz were good for each other, and I don't know about soulmates. Personally, I think soulmates are overdone, LOL. Name me one soulmate who didn't kill themselves or go crazy? Romeo and Juliet committed suicide, Guinevere cheated on Arthur with his best friend (yes, Arthur had incest with his half-sister but that was *before* he married Guine), Helen and Paris destroyed several nations and several thousand lives, Bonnie and Clyde got put in jail, and well...other examples elude me, but the result is hardly ever pretty. :P


Destiny gave me the heeby-jeebies. Namely cause I don't think the writer's ever let Liz as a character or even a person deal with all the shit that had happened to her since the pilot episode properly. Let's see, she goes from being a regular student to getting shot, was brought back to life, finds out about aliens, and suddenly she's apart of something so monumental everything about her is focused on these other people. Not that it's there fault she doesn't keep things in perspective...but still, she never really dealt. And then to fall in love with this really hot, mysterious guy and then the whole back and forth thing (do i want to date liz, i don't want to date liz, i love liz, i can't put her in danger, etc etc) and jealous exes, freaking out and manipulating best friends, trying to hide the truth from a well meaning authority figure, lying to parentals...and then to find out that it could have all been for nothing because your boyfriend has a 'destiny' to rule another planet and marry someone else...someone like him...someone who could physically and mentally match him because she is just like him. Someone whom the two biggest obstacles of doubt in her relationship to Max (ie Michael and Isabel) would accept her before they accepted Liz for the fact that she was an alien and Liz was just human.

Oh, and don't get me started on Maria. I can tolerate her, but for the most part I don't think she treated anyone but Maria fairly. Poor Michael...he had to put up with her....and Kyle was creepy the first few episodes, stalker is never good especially when they have good intentions.

My personal position on Dreamers has always been the same: the started out so good and I will read a Dreamer fic if the story is well written. My major peeve with Dreamers and the reason I stepped out of Dreamers is the fact that the Dreamers fall into three main categories: a) the Max can do no wrong and everything bad that happened was the result of an incompetant Liz, b) Liz can do no wrong but Max is just a pathetic puppy succumbing to her will and wiley ways, or c) Max and Liz are just *so perfect!* like omg, no other couple is as romantic or perfect or understanding and the like never fight!

I started looking into Polarism because so many of the Dreamer stories I was reading always put Liz in such a negative light and I admit, that bugs me, because for me Liz made the show. The show was about her, and it was about Max, and the fact that they dared to find love with each other despite the major differences. I'll be the first to admit that Liz is not perfect, and I often try to show her as the flawed person she is, but neither do I think we need to bash her. To me, Michael just was the better choice as far as complementing Liz...that and I also fantasized about a Michael/Liz/Max threesome going around. You cannot tell me that the first few episodes where she protected Michael and when he returned her journal there wasn't that spark! :)

And I love Awakened Dreamer because he is everything that Max is and isn't. I hate it that we never got to see what this great character could have been, I would have figured since he *was* Max's dupe that he would have had more air time. And Double Dipping is just...*drools*

I don't really care for True Blue either (which is why I only made *mention* of it in my SPN fic, :) ) but I am willing to give any pairing an equal oppurtunity on whether I like or dislike it.

Hopefully that answers your question. Anything else you want to know, just give me a pm!
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Re: Were Max and Liz really good for each other?

Postby Coccy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:06 am

Firstly there's a note by the moderator of the board that this is the dreamer forum and bashing is not allowed. Uc fans can find their own board.
so always remember it

i hope that this is still the dreamer board (especially since it seems that CC fans can't post their opinion about UC into their boards)



KiaraAlexisKlay wrote:I would agree that Max and Liz were good for each other, and I don't know about soulmates. Personally, I think soulmates are overdone, LOL. Name me one soulmate who didn't kill themselves or go crazy? Romeo and Juliet committed suicide, Guinevere cheated on Arthur with his best friend (yes, Arthur had incest with his half-sister but that was *before* he married Guine), Helen and Paris destroyed several nations and several thousand lives, Bonnie and Clyde got put in jail, and well...other examples elude me, but the result is hardly ever pretty. :P


sorry but i don't understand what you meant especially since you put examples of couples who aren't really examples of soulmates. :shock: I don't even know if Romeo&Juliet can be considered soulmates since they didn't prove it to me.
and soulmates or not, the perfect couples don't exist and soulmates aren't an exception. Soulmates are a plus. you can find tons of dysfunctional couples into people who are "normal" couples without the soulmates thing. If soulmates aren't perfect it figures other normal couples. This discussion doesn't make sense.

If you read the real legend about soulmates you would learn about their purpose. In the original legend your soulmate is the person who can understand you and can forgive you your mistakes like no one, someone who can heal you and who is connected to you into a way that transcends science.

Max&Liz? they gave me FACTS.
they were connected into a way that science can't explain. She felt inside her when he died, his soul survived for her and her only and in the end she brought him back to life with a kiss.
Liz wasn't programmed to be with Max nor the antarians could know that they would have put Zan's clone into that certain place of the earth where years later Max would find this human girl and fall in love with her as soon as he saw her, even if he didn't even know who himself was.
Liz is the only person he healed and who got flashes from him too while he was healing her.
even when they tried to change the future in the end they were still together and married. and happy. and alive xD
and with the books written after the series (that are an official product since they're approved by who created roswell in the first place) they're even more happy since they will have 2 children and a life without the FBI on them.





Destiny gave me the heeby-jeebies. Namely cause I don't think the writer's ever let Liz as a character or even a person deal with all the shit that had happened to her since the pilot episode properly.


i agree. But the same thing happened to Max
lets see, he got captured and tortured both physically and psychologically by the FBI who tried to cut him into pieces while he was still alive. He got tortured like an animal and they used him for many experiments that hurt him not to mention that they blackmailed him making him believe that they would kill Liz and his friends if he didn't tell Pierce what he wanted to know (something that even Max didn't know)
Max payed for Nacedo's faults (the killer was Nacedo, Nacedo killed all those people not Max. Max saved the woman he loved.. and see what he got on return)
then after this hell they suddenly told him that he was a king, that he had to save a planet, that Tess was his stupid wife etc etc. And Liz left him when he needed her the most (i understand her. completely. she didn't it for selfish reasons. she thought that she had no place into his life because he had a mission, something bigger that what they thought. Still, he needed her. she saw what happened to him, she saw it like no one ever did)
Then Max saw Liz with Kyle. Yes they weren't a couple (Max and Liz) but just like Liz was hurt by what happened between Max and Tess (even if she was the one who broke up with Max in the first place. The one who told him on and on that they couldn't be together. Max couldn't know the truth) the same is valid for Max too when he saw her with Kyle (and don't call him a stalker. otherwise Liz was a stalker too when she went into Max's room and saw him with Tess. Please give me a break. A stalker is totally another kind of person. Kyle in season 1 is a much better example of what a stalker is. and what about Michael in season 3? but lets talk about it later... :P)
In the end of season 2 people always forget that Max and only Max was the one who did touch Alex's death body. Can you understand or try to understand how he felt when he couldn't heal him? Everyone was awaiting for the miracle. for Max's miracle. and he failed. He couldn't heal him. I still remember his "Liz.." when he looked at her after it. His hand with Alex's blood on it. Terrible. He felt like a s*it. It wasn't his fault but he failed. He couldn't heal Alex. He couldn't heal Liz's best friend. surely he couldn't tell her about it and the only one who "comforted" him was (the most disgusting and gross scene ever) Alex's killer who obviously took advantage of how lonely Max was. In the same episode Max tried to comfort Liz instead. And then in the end Liz "accused" him and told him that he was responsible of Alex's death (i know that she didn't want but it's what she did and realized it too because in departure she told him that she was sorry and she didn't want to accuse him) It was Max's nightmare. *he* was the one who saved her , he was the one who put them all in danger because he shared his secret. He couldn't accept that an alien killed Alex because as the leader and as the one who started it all, he felt responsible. And Liz told him. Liz. the one he loved. the woman he saved. the one he did everything for and put himself and everyone in danger. Liz awakened his worst fear.

season 3? Max DIED in season 3. He died because he wanted to save Valenti for Christ's sake! and no one but Liz really cared about it. He lived a hell, he couldn't even talk about it.
and then in the end he did lose his son. He had to give him up for adoption because he understood that his baby couldn't have a normal life with him because his life would be a hell forever. the baby was human, it was a gift for him. Max thought that he would ruin his life and i do understand it. I understand that he didn't want to remove from his child the right to be normal.

Now, i don't remember when the writers REALLY developed all this s*it. when? O___O WHEN?
I mean, in season 2 Michael got "W las vegas" for his nightmares (and what happened to him? it was bad but not as bad as someone used like an animal by the fbi, like if he wasn't a human being but a monster to kill without pity) ad he accused Max of not healing him but my question is who did heal Max after he got tortured, after he died, after he couldn't save Alex, after he did lose his son? who? the only one who really tried to do something was Liz but Liz wasn't always with him because of FMax and the circumstances. I don't remember that Michael tried to "heal" him too not to mention when Max died. We all know what happened and what Michael told him when Max was alive again.

after all who care about Max? He must be perfect. he's the leader and the healer. heal everyone but die alone baby. he can't be hurt, he can't have bad times.
everyone got a personal crisis but Max can't. when it's about Max no wayyy. he's a robot. no feelings. no soul. he's the servant of the others and he must make everyone happy and resolve every problem they have. he must be always the perfect boyfriend who kiss Liz's shoes no matter what she did.
mostly of it it's the WB's fault too. They wanted the alien superhero.

still i don't remember a single time where Max kept record of how Liz lied and manipulated him in season2.
He always took all the fault. I don't remember a single scene in season 3 where he told her that she did hurt him too, that he had the damn right to know the truth and to make a damn choice with his own mind.

in season 2 Liz did hurt him a lot but still he tried to be her friend. I still remember scenes like the one from "a roswell xmas carol" or "we're a family"
where Max is always the stalker obsessive ex-boyfriend?
i don't remember that he threatened Sean or something like that.

also, i don't think that you're a stalker or possessive or obsessive toward someone who loves you. Liz loved Max and she wanted to be with him. She hoped to be with him and she appreciated his attentions very well. the only time where things went wrong is in the episode "it's too late and too bad" and it was BOTH their faults. and they understood it.




Oh, and don't get me started on Maria. I can tolerate her, but for the most part I don't think she treated anyone but Maria fairly. Poor Michael...he had to put up with her....and Kyle was creepy the first few episodes, stalker is never good especially when they have good intentions.


Maria can be not perfect but Michael isn't either. I had a boyfriend like him once and believe me, Maria is a saint sometimes. he told her many sweet things but he did hurt her too. a lot.
where you can find a "poor Michael" you will find a "poor Maria" and a "poor Liz" and a "poor Max" and a "poor Alex" etc etc.


My personal position on Dreamers has always been the same: the started out so good and I will read a Dreamer fic if the story is well written. My major peeve with Dreamers and the reason I stepped out of Dreamers is the fact that the Dreamers fall into three main categories: a) the Max can do no wrong and everything bad that happened was the result of an incompetant Liz, b) Liz can do no wrong but Max is just a pathetic puppy succumbing to her will and wiley ways, or c) Max and Liz are just *so perfect!* like omg, no other couple is as romantic or perfect or understanding and the like never fight!


I'm a Dreamer and i don't fall into these categories. But it seems that you fall into one of them, the one where Liz can't do no wrongs
I love them both. I don't consider them perfect but i don't consider them devil incarnates only because they had flaws. and NO ONE in roswell was perfect.
I'm sick of how people seem to notice only their flaws and they make them bigger than how they really are.
Roswell fans can justify even someone like TESS but then when it's about Max&Liz they're so baaaaad so selfish (even if, basically, they sacrificed their love for "the end of the world")

also, you're a polar. i could say the same thing about polars
For most of polars Michael can't do no wrongs and Maria (and Max. oh especially Max. how they transform him into their fanfictions is almost hilarious if people wouldn't be brainwashed by them and they totally forget about the real show ) is evil incarnate. They totally forget how Michael was worse than Max more than once and he had his faults.
point is that all the fans can be like that, not just the dreamers.


I started looking into Polarism because so many of the Dreamer stories I was reading always put Liz in such a negative light


maybe i'm lucky but i never read a Dreamer ff where Liz is put into a negative light.
I've read many ff where Max is put into a negative light (especially AU) at the beginning but then you see his true colors so they don't bother me.
In most of the ff i've read Liz is a hero

i don't like "worship" fanfictions.

To me, Michael just was the better choice as far as complementing Liz...that and I also fantasized about a Michael/Liz/Max threesome going around. You cannot tell me that the first few episodes where she protected Michael and when he returned her journal there wasn't that spark! :)


ok. i want to be honest. To me polar doesn't make sense and never will. It's pure nonsense, it's not coherent and hypocritical. Sorry but you're into a dreamer board ( and i'm almost "sweet" compared to what i've read from polars about [s]M&L[/s]Max and [s]M&M[/s]Maria)
when i read phrases like "Michael was the better choice because he could complete Liz" i laugh
complete what? :lol: (didn't you write the phrase "soulmates are overdone" in the same reply? :lol: it seems that when it's about Mi&L they're not overdone :lol: even if they don't exist and they didn't prove to be even real friends it figures soulmates) what he can complete if they don't exist and if sometimes he can't complete even Maria who is crazy in love with him?
how he can complete someone who cared about him only because he's a part of the group, the brother of the man she loved and the boyfriend of her best friend?

it's a 'couple' that never happened in the show (no wonder why) and never happened in the books and we have no clues about them. They worked together at the crashdown for 3 years and they weren't even friends. I don't think that they hated each other but as far as the show is concerned they tolerated each other only because of Max and Maria. no more. no less.

Liz protected Michael? i don't remember it. I don't remember that she did for him more than what she did for her other friends (and after all Michael, Isabel and Max were in danger because Max saved her so it's obvious that she tried to help them, she started to do it from the beginning. it's Liz) and when she was falling in "chant down babylon" i don't remember that into her flashes about the people she loved she had a flash about Michael too, even as a friend.
In "the balance" Liz and only Liz wasn't able to join in the circle in order to help Michael because everything she was thinking was Max (Thania St John, one of roswell's writers explained it very well in the commentary and you know she wrote the whole thing) she was so scared for Max (and Max wasn't in danger while Michael really was) that she couldn't even try to help Michael (River Dog noticed it too and she told her that she could have ruined the healing) and then when she finally joined them she did it for Max (notice that she's the only one who didn't touch or went to Michael in the dream, she looked at Max it was their moment into Michael's moment. she did it more for him than for Michael. Thania confirmed it just like she confirmed my idea that Michael resented Liz because she was taking Max's attention from him and this did hurt him. Clear like water.)

Do you call Liz suggesting to kill Michael in WDAMYAK as "complementing Michael"? :lol: that scene showed people how Liz wasn't emotionally linked to Michael while Max and Maria were. Because Liz wasn't emotionally linked to him she could think about what happened to Michael like the scientist she was.
also notice how she took Maria's side the day after when Michael didn't say "sorry" to her, her face said it all (everyone looked at Michael like if he was a kid, crazy or something like that. So it's not only Maria the one who "doesn't accept" Michael. no one accepted his character or liked it) not to mention the way she told Kyle "no, Max is the king now"

oh and lets not talk about the infamous scene from missing.
Polars accuse Max of doing wrong things toward Liz and then they fall in love with a scene where Michael totally invaded Liz's privacy and he even forgot about it. He remembered about her journal only when Max told them about it.
how cute. He did steal her personal journal and he did read it without her permission. He had no right to do it. It was personal and intimate. and they weren't even friends! (not that a friend would have the right to steal it)
Max never did something like that. Even Kyle back when he was the stalker never tried to steal her journal. and what about Maria, Alex... the episode proved that even Nancy Parker never invaded her privacy like that
it's a real invasion of privacy and it's not respectful toward her feelings even if he didn't destroy it (and thank you Michael. at least you didn't destroy it :roll: )

also, i know that for polars Michael was jealous of Max because he wanted Liz for himself but the truth is that his phrase was just sad and bitter. what he did envy was that Max had someone to trust and someone who loved him back . Not to mention that one of the writers clearly said that Michael was jealous of Liz because she was taking Max's attention from him (not into a slash way but we should understand that Michael had no family and Max was not only his only friend and someone to trust. He was his brother and family too. most likely he did steal Liz's journal in order to prove Max how she didn't deserve his trust and when he didn't find what he was looking for he totally forgot about the journal. )

to me Michael and Liz are very incompatible. Liz would kill him :lol: she's not like Maria.
also, Michael doesn't need a 'mommy' . :roll: he never wanted one. otherwise Isabel was the better choice for him.
Michael had his own insecurities and someone like Liz could make them even bigger. Michael is Michael. He's not Max. Maria didn't change him, she loved him however even if he wasn't the perfect boyfriend. But she loved him and she was honest.

just because Liz didn't argue with him like Maria did it doesn't automatically mean that Liz would accept Michael more than Maria. Michael wasn't Liz's problem. he was Maria's boyfriend not Liz's. and Liz was the girlfriend of someone who is the opposite of Michael and she showed very well how she liked certain attentions and romantic things. Maria wanted them but Liz wanted them too!
Liz could tell Max when he was wrong about something, she is even more direct than Maria, so much that sometimes it could hurt people. But Max listened to her advices and he didn't took them as a way to "teach" him or hurt him. The only time she did hurt him was in 'cry your name'. The other times he listened and he didn't feel offended. Michael can get offended even if you tell him that he can't buy a normal shampoo or that his xmas gift isn't the best. In fact he doesn't take advices.
Max is not Michael and Michael is not Max. Seeing how Michael reacted at the people who tried to tell him that he was wrong about something i feel that he wouldn't like this side of Liz's character so much.
Michael and Liz weren't even attracted to each other. I always smile when i watch "w las vegas". His nickname for her was a child :lol: a very special child yes, but compared to margarita salt passion and lust are totally missed.
what about a tale of two parties? even when he was drunk and slept into her bed nothing happened between them. that episode is such a tease


personally I find the polar world very contradictory.
For them all Max is evil incarnate and he isn't a good boyfriend for Liz and then they want to put her with.. Michael? :lol: with Michael!!!!! xD
(or Kivar, Spike, i don't remember the other character Liz is being whored out with... every character played by Jensen something)

People call Max obsessive, possessive and a stalker but he never really showed these things, not more than others. (not to mention that when he's too sweet and protective then.. he's boring for many :lol: ) what about Michael? (or the other crazy characters Liz is paired with. Poor Liz)
Michael showed that he could be violent and abusive, that he could stalk a girl, that he could cheat, that he could be very selfish (W las vegas and behind the music everyone? and what about when he thought that Isabel was pregnant with his baby and he told Maria that their relationship was stupid? basically he did all the things polars accuse Max of being/doing xD xD)
in season 3 when Maria broke up with him he REALLY stalked her. Possessive? what about Billy? he basically told Maria what she had to do.
hey I'm not saying that what he did was bad. I'm not the one here who is saying that a guy in love with a girl is automatically a stalker just because he tries to be with her. But you should apply the same judgment on Michael too especially when he gives even more examples than Max
sorry me if i find the whole thing very hypocritical.

it seems that when Michael is possessive, abusive, jealous and obsessive (not to mention stalker) it's romantic. when Max is like that (and it didn't happen so many times) he's sooooooo bad. poor Liz. she's a martyr :lol:
maybe i'm crazy since i envy her for the husband she got :? :shock:

Max is the possessive, abusive and stalker mostly into polar ff (obviously. otherwise there's no way Liz could fall out of love with him and polars know it very well. after everything she did with him and everything he did for her, how their love was proved and won against everything. no wonder why polars need to transform Max otherwise Michael and Liz are the bad cheaters. They need to justify this wrong relationship and by making Max the bad guy and Maria 100% stupid it's sooooo easy ) .

least but not last. Max as the leader? I don't think that i need to remember you what Michael did when he was the leader so lets skip this topic because it's ugly. (and don't try to justify Michael's actions with the "alien side" thing. Because then you should do it with Max too especially since the writers created this excuse for Max's behavior. they never talked about Michael and Isabel too )

i also find the polar world contradictory and hypocritical because most of polars hate Max and they worship Michael but then into their ff Michael is magically Max's clone :| (same goes for Liz and Maria. magically Liz is like Maria. and they hate Maria :lol: ). Even the quotes and the scenes are similar. (but this happens into many rebel ff too. They hate Liz but they transform Tess into her clone and basically the ff is dreamer with different names)
Sorry but i do prefer the whole package of the original one, flaws included. at least it's coherent and canon.


i know that my post is a bit.. rude :? sorry, i know that they asked you but i can't help to notice that you're an anti-dreamer who is posting in the dreamer board . I didn't want to attack *you*
also, i'm not american so, sorry if my english isn't perfect


it seems that Dreamers are always the bad ones even if all the fans do what they're accused of doing. yes we're the only ones who worship characters and believe that they can't do no wrongs (put tons of sarcasm here) other fans are sooooooooooo coherent. they're all the winners of coherency. :roll:
please give me a break
we're not animals to put into a category
Last edited by Coccy on Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"You're what would bring me back.
Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in,
that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons.
They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form." - Max Evans; Roswell High - The Watcher
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