A History of Roswell Fanfic

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Realistic Dreamer
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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Realistic Dreamer » Mon May 16, 2011 11:17 pm

Hey ...

Cocogurl wrote:I think if Max did, he wouldn't played back and forth games with Liz throughout season one and he wouldn't have treated her like a doormat in season 3.



To my mind, season 3 was a waste of time. I think I watched it once, so it's a blip on my radar.

As to season 1, I do see it differently. If Max is "controlling," I think it would help to remember the context of his actions, and not just his actions. Again, I think this speaks to how little, if any, attention is paid to Max as opposed to Liz.

Ever since he more or less outed himself as an alien by healing Liz, Max was under unparalleled scrutiny. The kid was watched everywhere he went, all the time. He was stalked. First by the sheriff, then by the FBI (and eventually the Special Unit) when Valenti went to them for help. And let's not forget Hubble, a bona fide alien hunter, the guy who kidnapped Max and so terrorized him that he had a complete breakdown, screaming at Valenti "You want me?! Here I am!!"

Please ... how can the guy *not* be controlling? Whose life is at stake? Max is desperately trying, while being watched day and night, to not give himself away as an alien. Call them stupid, but nobody thought about Michael and Isabel being alien. The one that was watched - on camping trips, in the hospital (they're checking out his friggin' garbage!), on road trips, in school, walking down the street, cameras in his friend's apartment, in his own home when he comes in to find the sheriff with his mother - was Max. My gosh.

And I know that a lot is made of Liz and Isabel telling Max that he's controlling, and that him taking a step back was playing games. Taken in the context of what is going on in his life, who can blame him? Right before Max tells Liz that he needs to take a step back, what happened? Two things. Liz couldn't bring herself to take part in the alien ritual. But before that - and this is critical - when they are out at the reservation, Max confides in her. He wonders if this is their life span, if what is happening to Michael is just part of what happens before they die. He doesn't know. The guy is scared. And Liz is clearly uncomfortable. When Max reaches out his hand, she looks like "please don't touch me, please don't touch me." Max sees it, clearly. While I've read plenty of fics about how Liz is hurt that he took a step back, I've never found a Max point of view fic about this.

Right after that, when the sheriff comes along after the fire, he chats up Max's mother, leaving her pamphlets on grease fires, creating doubt about her son in her mind. So, Max has already seen Liz's reaction (and she already knows he's an alien), he's never been sure (for whatever reason) of his mother's acceptance, he's being stalked 24/7 by so many, and along comes Isabel who decides that *now* is the perfect time for them to tell Mom the truth.

Plus Liz had already given him evidence fishy enough. Why would a suicidal person buy concert tickets for a future date with his girlfriend? That doesn't make any sense. And he had no reason to commit suicide. He had the girl of his dreams and was happier than ever about that. I think Liz had given the aliens plenty of evidence there to be suspicious about.



When Max went to Valenti, all he had was Liz's opinion that Alex wouldn't commit suicide. That was it. And he was bombarded with evidence.

Valenti didn't take it all at face value. He went to the scene himself, he interviewed the truck driver and was so skeptical that the driver was furious, thinking that Valenti wanted to blame him for Alex swerving into his lane. He interviewed the delivery kid, got line-for-line what Alex said. He saw the interviews of Alex's teachers, his failing grades. He saw the pic that Liz showed him of Alex, and to Valenti it was just one more piece of evidence that Alex was self-destructive.

Liz never told Max any of this, when she went to visit him. So Max was caught flat-footed. And he listened to Valenti's professional opinion - based on all the evidence that he'd seen in the file that he showed to Max - that Alex committed suicide.

So Max is placed between two people he cares about, with completely different opinions, and he's conflicted. At that point, that's all he was - conflicted. He's not sure. And Liz jumped all over him. Not only that - she adds the completely new belief that Alex was murdered!

Now, right about here, I would love to read one fic where Max can't just automatically trust Liz, because Liz has spent previous months and months leaving Max, ignoring Max when she got back from FLA, clearly moving on from Max (new attitude, new job, new life), dating boys more normal than Max (look, Max, at Liz straddling Sean at Amy's house; remember, Max, all that bare skin showing when you found Kyle and Liz together), accusing Max of being okay with Sean being stabbed, telling him she was suffocating because of him and then dancing like she didn't have a care in the world after she'd gotten rid of that millstone. That there is no basis for Max to just automatically buy into Liz's hot new theory, just because she's Liz. But most, if not all, of the fics that I read set during this period celebrate Liz "getting a spine" and standing up to Max, even though she'd made a complete mash of the whole thing.

Now I don't feel that this is where Max's POV was in CYN. I don't think it was about who'd been there for and who hadn't. I think it just all boiled down to the fact he didn't want to believe that Alex's death was alien related. He'd always been scared that his alien identity would hurt the people he cared about and now Liz was basically bringing that horrible fear to life and he didn't want to believe. I think it was just easier to believe suicide than think it had to do with aliens.



Again, this is not how this started out. Liz never pulled Max aside and talked to him about any of this, before she sprung it on him in the room after the funeral. All Max said was that he saw the file and the evidence was convincing. From that moment on, Max says nothing. Everyone else argues. Then, Liz pulls out her murder theory. Forgive Max if he thinks that Liz has a screw loose. Then, Liz says that it was an alien. And Max says that's not what happened. Michael and Isabel and Tess all chime in, and Liz says it might be Kivar, because he's still jonesing for Vilandra. Isabel goes ballistic, this coming not long after her finding out that Vilandra betrayed her brother for Kivar. Now, Kivar kills Alex because of her? Max steps between them. There are reasons Max said and did what he did!

Again, I have less of an issue with Max not believing Liz because she never prepared him for *any* of it, including what he would run up against when he talked to Valenti, someone he trusts implicitely.

He still had Michael and Isabel. And it was his bad decisions that drove them away.



The thing is, I just wish that more attention was paid to everything that, as the leader, Max was responsible for, and how harrowing some of it was. The one that just breaks my heart for him was when he alone took the risk to change the bones, so that Michael wouldn't be under suspicion. If it all went south, Max would be going right back to that White Room ... and don't think he didn't know it, or wasn't scared out of his mind. But he soldiered on, and did what needed to be done anyway. Nasedo dying in his arms right after that? Another breakdown for Max, one that has him running thru the streets like all hell is behind him. Or taking the risk of discovering whether Brody was an innocent, stopping Michael and Isabel from killing him. If he was wrong, only he would die. But he did it anyway, because he didn't want them to have the guilt of possibly killing an innocent on their souls.

Or taking Isabel to Valenti when she was having the dreams, believing in her, depending on Valenti, only to have him lose his job protecting them, and having Kyle blame him (and only him - I don't see Kyle blaming Isabel or Michael) for it. Or, having to go to NY with only Liz's cryptic comment about the granolith, and having the responsibility of making the decision as to what to do about it (with pressure from five planets, no less), all basically on the fly.

Or the guilt of watching a man die, knowing he could do something about it, but not daring to because he not only had the safety of the others to think about, but he couldn't face another White Room experience.

All this, on a 17 year old's shoulders. No wonder he finally cracked under the pressure. Yet, the focus is all on Liz, and these things are reduced to bad decisions, or playing the king card, or being controlling.

Even the White Room - Max's watershed moment - has been co-opted by Liz, to a degree. I think I read more fics about *Liz* being in the White Room than I do about Max.

None of this, to my knowledge, is explored in any great degree in fics that I can see. I know how Liz feels about everything. I'd love to know how Max feels about anything. And I'm still waiting for the fic where Liz realizes that the decision she made to leave Max and push him toward Traitor!Tess was the wrong, and that Max had been right about that all along. :wink:
"It wasn't love at first sight. It took a full five minutes." ... Lucille Ball on meeting Desi Arnaz

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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Cocogurl » Wed May 25, 2011 4:26 am

We’ll all probably just have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don’t think I’ll ever be able to view the end of season 2 another way. I really felt like Max let Liz down there. But I’m stubborn that way. :lol:
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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Sin » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:10 pm

I think the main point is that the popular perception of Liz is just a different one then maybe you are seeing. Fiction is a reflection of how people see the canon work and aim to influence and change it. Liz is the first character we come to know and arguably love in Roswell and it is her view which we in turn start to care about other characters. It wouldn't surprise me if fans love Max based on their view of how Liz herself sees him based on the series point of view. Every character we meet at the beginning is seen through Liz's perception first and that initial view holds until there is a significant change in that view for that character. Isabel is initially very cold, Micheal is initially very hostile, Maria is quirky, bubbly and fun, Tess is seen as a threat, Alex is the dependable best friend and Max is seen as the sensitive caring love interest. All of these personality traits are initially from Liz's perception so it makes sense why viewers may be very loyal to Liz regardless of anything else. She is a good person who's eyes we relate and see things threw. Considering things in that context it doesn't take much to understand why viewers were angry with Max for his disarming change of character at the end of the season.

The rest of this discussion seems to be about the way you view their storylines, which I personally disagree with. But I think my paragraph above does at least show why a certain view may be more popular. Liz is the matriarch of Roswell, she is the narrator and the person who we come to identify with first in the world of Roswell.

__________________________________________________________________________________
Realistic Dreamer wrote:
If this were the only thing that Liz did, I would have no problem with it. Unfortunately, this lets Liz off the hook for the 5 previous months where she abandoned the man she loved because she heard some bad news.


Bad news? I feel like that's minimizing it quite a bit. She heard that she had virtually no place with Max and that he had a wife and a duty to a planet that was far away from Earth. She just heard that her and Max were destined not to be together and that he and Tess were quite literally made for one another. Yes she could have still been with him but she would have been stopping Max from saving two worlds and ultimately halting the progress of a relationship that was supposedly meant to be. I can't blame her at all for not wanting to get in the way of what Max was supposed to do. Let's not twist Liz's motives and start saying she just all the sudden didn't care and said to hell with Max and this alien business, I'm out to Florida.

Liz did what she did to help Max and the pod squad and to not cause Max further pain from having to choose between his duty and her. She already felt guilty about how Max got caught by the FBI partially because of her. She wasn't going to put him in anymore danger.

She made her decision and walked away (this is what I mean about LIz being the controller of the relationship as well).


Except that Liz isn't really the controller of their relationship. Pretty much every choice she makes is one that has been forced from her through various outside interests. Liz seemingly never makes choices about her. She is always making choices for other people and for what is in their best interests.

She had her new life all figured out.


You and I see things very differently, because Liz was never like that. She was never okay with just leaving Max. She hated it but she did it all under the pretense that she was doing what was best for him and everyone involved. She let him go because she thought she was doing him a favor by leaving him.

But that doesn't make me overly sympathetic when FutureMax comes back and stops her from rectifying the mistake she made five months ago, and now she's all about her and Max again.


Well I have to say it does to me. Why? Because it proves that Liz wanted to be with Max. Take away all of the obstacles and that's 100% true. She just wanted to be with him. The only reason she wasn't with him is because everything under the sun was telling her that she could not be with him.

My point is that Liz gets a pass on every other thing that happened, every other decision she made, every other crappy thing that she said to Max, all because of this one moment, and how bad we all feel for her as she sabotages the future. It's become her get out of jail free card for everything.


It's a pretty good "excuse" though. Everything she did was done to save the world and was done for Max's benefit. I can't think of one thing that can counter that. It's a solid justification and reason for all of her actions.


He was supposed to gloss over the fact that her normal speech hit every single vulnerability he had (and she never took it back, either, instead letting him know that she had to move to Vermont to get away from him and find normal ... can Max look forward to that every time Liz gets overwhelmed?)


This doesn't seem fair to me. Being around Max was killing her. Was she really supposed to suffer and stay in agony in late season three just because Max has insecurities? Liz was ill and being around Max aggravated all of her symptoms. I don't see why Max or Liz would want to stay in a situation like that. Max's indiscretion with Tess was causing her pain along with her change. She needed time away from him. Max's actions hurt her and were not easily washed away like his were with Liz. If Max could not see that Liz still loved him and was willing to be with him after all that happened with Tess then nothing will ever be able to reassure him. Liz was still apart of the group, still regularly risked her life for him and still put herself on the line for him. Max was very much still a priority in Liz's life even in season two and in that very same season she was a pretty good friend to him considering.

In season three Max knew that Liz didn't sleep with Kyle and everything she did was done for him. Once Max got around to that fact what could he be angry for? That Liz lied for his benefit? That Liz did what she did so that Max could live and do what he was meant to do? His hang ups would be unfounded. While Liz was willing to deal with Max sleeping with Tess and was willing to care for his son. Max would have no leg to stand on because everything that he dealt with doesn't compare to Max sleeping with Tess and having a child with her. Quite honestly it all looks petty by comparison.


And let's face it, if the situation was reversed, and Max had treated Liz this way (not talking about the EotW, but everything that happened before it), the clamor for her to move on by episode 3 of season 2 would have been deafening. It never would have gotten to the EotW , lol.


Max actually does treat Liz like this after Harvest and right before the Christmas episode. Which I think for the most part is understandable.

Exactly ... and there is a wealth of dreamer fic that all seem to begin with Liz going on and on about how Max hurt her (this is that lack of self-awareness of her own choices that I see)


I guess we are just going to continue to disagree. I don't think Liz ever had a choice in her decision. Her choice was to have Max and the world would end, or to have Max and stop him from accomplishing his mission to save his world. Liz was never going to selfishly choose herself over an entire planet of other people. So honestly, she had no choice. She was forcibly made to be a supporter of Max and Tess' relationship.

Or, how about really, really going into what Max felt when Liz invited him to prom and then told him that she was suffocating ... suffocating! ... because of him


This is taking everything out of context. She was suffocating because she was afraid of waiting to see him with Tess. There is even a quote where she says something to this effect.

LIZ I mean I saw you with Tess.

MAX Saw me what with Tess?

LIZ I saw you with her. I came by your house yesterday to talk to you about
something and you were with her.

MAX We were just trying to find out things about where I came from, that's
all.

LIZ I know, I know, I mean, you know, you keep saying that. but you um, keep
on leaving out this really pertinent fact. That you were married to her. I
feel like my whole life for the past year has been waiting for some really
bad news. Oh, you know, by the way Liz, I remember Tess, and I love her. It's
really paralyzing.


Liz was not suffocating because of Max, she was suffocating and paralyzed by the fact that one day he would tell her that he was in love with Tess and remembered his past life with her. That was what scared her and after Liz tells Max her greatest fear he goes and kisses Tess making her nightmare come true. lol.

This, again, never takes into account that much of what Liz went through stems from decisions she made and the way she acted.


Was forced in making and was forced into acting. I don't doubt for one minute that Liz would have chosen to take this route willingly. I can't belabor that point enough. It was no choice on her part at all. Context in Liz's actions is very much pertinent.

I admit, too, that I'm still waiting for it to dawn on Liz that the woman she kept pushing Max to was the very last person he should have been pushed towards. It would seem that Mom, FutureMax, FutureLiz, and she herself got it wrong, and Max (and FutureMax to a degree) was right after all.


Max would have no credence or merit to stand on here either because he slept with Tess and arguably trusted her more then he did anyone else during the entire end of season two. lol. How would Max be right in this equation? He winds up looking bad either way. It was Future Max who convinced Liz to get Max to believe she moved on and inspire confidence in Tess and it was Max himself who took Tess up on all of her offers. So Max winds up trusting Tess both ways. He doesn't by any means look any better here.

Again, this is my point. Liz did make the choices in their relationship. She made almost all of them.


I'll disagree. Liz never really had much of a choice once you outlined the facts out. Liz isn't by nature a selfish person and she would never choose herself and her own happiness over the fate of two entire planets.

That there is no basis for Max to just automatically buy into Liz's hot new theory, just because she's Liz.


If Max was a friend I do think he would have tried harder to understand where Liz was coming from. Again even in the second season Liz was still Max's friend. She was still apart of the group and she was still risking her life to help him. If nothing else Max should have seen how loyal Liz was to him before and how good of a friend she has continuously been to him through out the years and tried harder for her sake. I think the main problem in ITBAITL is that Max isn't even a friend to Liz. He doesn't really try to understand her or see her view and considering that her best friend since the age of 10 years old just died you would think Max would give her the slightest bit of slack. But no. This is the same Liz who warned him about the Granolith, the same Liz that ditched Sean for him to study an alien virus when he needed help, the same Liz that talked with him during Christmas about his haunting, the same Liz that went searching in the woods with him, and the same Liz that constantly put her neck out for him in various situations. Yet he couldn't see that she was having a hard time with Alex's death and help her through it? He couldn't maybe give her a chance to make her case?

If nothing else Max is a horrible friend to her during the ITBAITL arc. It only makes it worse when you look at his actions and take into account that Liz was right.

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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Cocogurl » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:17 pm

Sin wrote:If Max was a friend I do think he would have tried harder to understand where Liz was coming from. Again even in the second season Liz was still Max's friend. She was still apart of the group and she was still risking her life to help him. If nothing else Max should have seen how loyal Liz was to him before and how good of a friend she has continuously been to him through out the years and tried harder for her sake. I think the main problem in ITBAITL is that Max isn't even a friend to Liz. He doesn't really try to understand her or see her view and considering that her best friend since the age of 10 years old just died you would think Max would give her the slightest bit of slack. But no. This is the same Liz who warned him about the Granolith, the same Liz that ditched Sean for him to study an alien virus when he needed help, the same Liz that talked with him during Christmas about his haunting, the same Liz that went searching in the woods with him, and the same Liz that constantly put her neck out for him in various situations. Yet he couldn't see that she was having a hard time with Alex's death and help her through it? He couldn't maybe give her a chance to make her case?

If nothing else Max is a horrible friend to her during the ITBAITL arc. It only makes it worse when you look at his actions and take into account that Liz was right.


This I have to agree with, especially since I feel like their was basis for Liz's theory. Too much evidence was being dropped in everybody's laps that suggested suicide. And then Liz finds the concert tickets, which say other wise. If I were Liz, I'd be totally suspicious and I'd want to know what happened to my best friend too. And I think even the pod squad thought something was up with Alex's death too, but they were too angry with her at first to think about it and then they were too wrapped up in their own stuff to deal with. I can only imagine, though, how this would've turned out if it had been Michael or Isabel who had died instead. I have a feeling their would've been no argument or debate about investigating it. This is why I'm not on Max's side at the end of season 2 even if I do understand where his fears and pain were coming from.
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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby nibbles2 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Cocogurl wrote:This I have to agree with, especially since I feel like their was basis for Liz's theory. Too much evidence was being dropped in everybody's laps that suggested suicide. And then Liz finds the concert tickets, which say other wise. If I were Liz, I'd be totally suspicious and I'd want to know what happened to my best friend too.


A small nitpick, while ultimately Liz was right, the concert tickets really weren't conclusive evidence that Alex wasn't suicidal.

For one thing, she didn't know when he bought the tickets and most likely they were bought at an earlier date, weeks before his death. The other thing is that in the majority of suicides of teenagers, the decision to take their lives were spontaneous and not planned. So it was entirely feasible that Alex might have bought the tickets for the concert and then a week later decided to kill himself.

It has nothing to do with the current conversation, but just something I wanted to point out.

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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Cocogurl » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:41 pm

Liz said Alex bought them on the day that he died. I don't know why the writers would have her say it unless it was the truth. Unless it was just another writer's flub on their part, which is possible. They weren't always great about fully explaining things.
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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Misha » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:26 pm

I'm not sure Liz was so "choiceless" here. I think you have a lot of valid points, but I also think what those two were sorely lacking was communication.

"Hey Max, I don't really hate you, and I don't really want you with Tess, but you know... um... The world is going to end in 14 years because you and I were together, or rather you and Tess weren't together..."

Was there any clause on FMax's warning that prevented her from telling him that, especially when things between Max and Tess might not go as smoothly as hoped? Sure, Max would have understood, and at the very least he would be fighting for her love with all information. As it stands, he spends a year thinking that Liz didn't even discuss with him if he wanted his destiny or if he thought there was a way around, and a few months after just goes and sleeps with Kyle. After everything. After she jumped bridges for him. After she put her life in danger for him. After all that and more, their love was not really that meaningful, if she just can go and move on rather fast. We know better, of course, but he doesn't.

Cue in that Liz was not exactly cheering on the Tess-Max parade. She knows it will save two planets. She knows the end of the world depends on that. She knows it hurts like hell but yeah... So she goes and keeps friends, and then blames Max to be suffocated? Which one is it, Liz? You want them together or not? Stop messing with Max's feelings, please. He's been crushing on you for at least 10 years, you know? But I get it, she's 17 (so is he), and she's in the middle of what she has to do with what she wants to do. Yet life is moving on, Max is apparently moving on too (after a year of rejections). She's totally entitled to be angry and frustrated. It doesn't mean she's right though. It doesn't mean Max was right either. They were just a couple of teenagers who had to deal with things adults would run away in a second.

I side with Max at the end of season 2 in many points, but specially on not believing Liz right away. What she was doing did put them in danger. As minimum as it was, as unprovable as it might be, does Max really want to risk their entire group (after one of their own is dead) that recklessly? After everyone had very valid points to think it suicide (gotta give it to Tess there), and Liz has a couple of tickets and the belief there was no chance in hell Alex was going to suicide? And later, when he calms down, and he tells her he would help her, she rejects him because he doesn't believe it. She wouldn't even give him the benefit of the doubt that investigating it would change his mind.

And lets not forget that Max was grieving too. He had just seen Alex's bloodied corpse and had faced the fact that No, Max, you cannot heal them all. He had let everyone down. Heck, he starts crying at how guilty he feels about it.

So Liz is angry at the world, Max is caught in the reality that people do die, and they just collide. Add to that his new memories about being Zan (just as Isabel, he has to be wondering what part is more important: the part that is human or alien?), that everything he does in his power to keep everyone else safe is failing miserably (it wasn't a good plan either, but Max has every bit of a problem with communicating as Liz), plus years of fear and white memories of torture, and you have a very messed up teenager.

If Max is constantly reminded that out there is better than down here, I can't blame him for just giving up on being human and going Tess's way. It was still idiotic, but I don't think he owe Liz anything by that point. She had already slept with Kyle, and she had made it clear that she could not see a future with him. At all. That she chose that particular moment in time (and she did choose it) was her decision, and her very own right. She can move on as well, she's entitled to be afraid, but please don't blame Max to FINALLY understand that they are not, and never will be a couple. Isn't she saving the world here, too?

He also didn't kiss Tess on purpose to get to Liz.

In a simpler time, when Max had thought Liz and Kyle were coming back together, he at least went out and told her that it was okay if she wanted to go out with Kyle again. What does she say? "even if it were, I wouldn't need your permission." Um... obviously more complex times, but the idea still applies.

Of course Liz was right, and of course she's very good at investigating. And she was given impossible choices in key moments, but she did have a lot of choices getting her to where she stood. She was in love with someone she shouldn't (someone who didn't know she shouldn't), so half the time she didn't emotionally hurt Max on purpose. She did accuse him of not wanting to heal Sean, of suffocating her, of not believing in her, and to top it off, to sleep with Tess. Even if healing Sean would reveal himself to an untrustworthy person, she was around him, she had flimsy proof, and she had slept with Kyle. We know what's behind most of it, but Max doesn't.

As you very cleverly pointed out, we get Liz's point of view clearer. We know all she has sacrificed. We get less exposition to how Max feels. From being an alien, lying to everyone, dealing with the White Room, dealing with everything. All we know is that he's Max. He's supposed to know these things. To be strong. To do right. So when he doesn't, and we hardly have a background for his actions, it's understandable it all collapses. He shouldn't have done that, and poor Liz is left to deal with everything.

Was Liz given the worst of it? Maybe, but if so, she was marginally given the worst of it. Having a lost son to a murderous woman on a planet with an usurper who wants one dead can't be exactly calming thoughts to go to sleep. But of course, we are left with no sympathy for Max's son, and much less for Max's quest. I didn't like it either, but I could see where he was coming from. He pursues Liz when he thinks "well, there's nothing I can do", but when he "connects" later with his son, he's suddenly reminded that Yes, he does have a responsibility to that life. He's surprised that Liz chooses to help him out: "I know what life is without you and with you, and I want you"... Liz totally asked for it, albeit, she had no idea what she was getting herself into.

So now Max is an impossible situation, to which Liz tags along. It wasn't fair for neither. I can't blame Max for getting obsessed about finding a way to his son, but I don't have to like it, just as Liz didn't.

Those two are just one messy couple. I can see where both arguments are coming, and I do agree Max always gets the short end of it. They both had very valid reason to act as they did, knowing and feeling what they did at that particular moment. It's easier to judge them knowing all we did, and all we know now, but it just wasn't that clear to them.
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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Realistic Dreamer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:47 pm

Sin wrote:I think the main point is that the popular perception of Liz is just a different one then maybe you are seeing.


Believe it or not, Max and Liz were my favorite couple, and I truly liked Liz ... in season 1.


Bad news? I feel like that's minimizing it quite a bit. She heard that she had virtually no place with Max and that he had a wife and a duty to a planet that was far away from Earth. She just heard that her and Max were destined not to be together and that he and Tess were quite literally made for one another. Yes she could have still been with him but she would have been stopping Max from saving two worlds and ultimately halting the progress of a relationship that was supposedly meant to be.


Okay, Liz was not caught completely flat-footed by this. She saw the destiny book, and the obvious pairings. She heard Max say, plain as day, that he wasn't going to let any book tell him what to do, and that he made his own decisions when it came to his personal life. He told her he loved her, not Tess.

What Liz did here was hear that Tess was his wife in their previous life, and she ran. She might have used the excuse that it was saving the planet, but I don't think that's the case.

What she didn't do is let Max in on any of the decision making process. She decided that she knew best how he had to fulfill his destiny. How did she know? Max didn't even know. What happened to being a couple, and working things out together?

No, she was threatened by the fact that Tess was his wife in the previous life. The proof would be in the fact that, every time she talked about Destiny after that, it was always about Tess. Saving the planet never even came up again.

Except that Liz isn't really the controller of their relationship. Pretty much every choice she makes is one that has been forced from her through various outside interests. Liz seemingly never makes choices about her. She is always making choices for other people and for what is in their best interests.


I don't really agree with this, because she might be motivated by outside interests, but the decision is still made by her. The thing that was holding Max and Liz apart ... before the EotW ... was Liz having made the decision that Max needed to be with Tess and not changing her mind.

Well I have to say it does to me. Why? Because it proves that Liz wanted to be with Max. Take away all of the obstacles and that's 100% true. She just wanted to be with him. The only reason she wasn't with him is because everything under the sun was telling her that she could not be with him.


Again, I disagree, because the only thing keeping Liz from Max was Liz.

She didn't give Max any chance at all to figure things out. She didn't hear Max when he said that his personal life was his own, and that he would make his own decisions as to who he would be with. She apparently didn't see that, even though Michael and Isabel were engaged in the previous life, they weren't exactly falling all over themselves to get married and fulfill the other half of Destiny.

It's a pretty good "excuse" though. Everything she did was done to save the world and was done for Max's benefit. I can't think of one thing that can counter that. It's a solid justification and reason for all of her actions.


This is probably the crappiest position in the world to be in ... have someone decide for you who it is that you're going to marry and who you should be with, because they're doing it for your benefit.

Max couldn't win this one if he tried. If he honored Liz's supposed wishes for him to be with Tess, he's cheating on her ... even though that's what Liz keeps saying Max is supposed to do. What Max is really supposed to do is wait for Liz to either decide years from now that they can be together, or wait until she marries Sean or Kyle and has 2.0 children.


This doesn't seem fair to me. Being around Max was killing her. Was she really supposed to suffer and stay in agony in late season three just because Max has insecurities? Liz was ill and being around Max aggravated all of her symptoms. I don't see why Max or Liz would want to stay in a situation like that. Max's indiscretion with Tess was causing her pain along with her change. She needed time away from him. Max's actions hurt her and were not easily washed away like his were with Liz. If Max could not see that Liz still loved him and was willing to be with him after all that happened with Tess then nothing will ever be able to reassure him. Liz was still apart of the group, still regularly risked her life for him and still put herself on the line for him. Max was very much still a priority in Liz's life even in season two and in that very same season she was a pretty good friend to him considering.

In season three Max knew that Liz didn't sleep with Kyle and everything she did was done for him. Once Max got around to that fact what could he be angry for? That Liz lied for his benefit? That Liz did what she did so that Max could live and do what he was meant to do? His hang ups would be unfounded. While Liz was willing to deal with Max sleeping with Tess and was willing to care for his son. Max would have no leg to stand on because everything that he dealt with doesn't compare to Max sleeping with Tess and having a child with her. Quite honestly it all looks petty by comparison.


This is my point.

Liz told Max is season 2 that she wanted normal ... normal life, normal boys, normal. She then takes him back, up until things get overwhelming and she has to leave to find "normal" again, which is without him.

She's just validated the normal speech. That "lie" isn't a lie anymore. When her life with him ... and she's the one who decided to get back together with him ... gets to be too much, she will leave him.

She's still not taking any responsibility for her own choices. When she left Max, when she broke up with him, she lost the right to be upset about anything that Max did after that, even if her motives were high and lofty. And the idea that anything that Max dealt with is nothing compared to the fact that he slept with Tess (which was his right, as he was not Liz's boyfriend anymore), and had a child with her again kind of proves my point that being stalked, torture, painful break up right afterward, risking another white room experience to save Michael, having their protector die in his arms, risking his own life to stop them from possibly killing an innocent, having the woman he loves look him dead in the eyes and tell him that he's not normal enough for her, seeing her in bed with Kyle, watching a man die and knowing that he could save him but for the fact that he can't face another white room, hearing the woman he loves tell him that he's "okay" with Sean being stabbed ...

That's all petty?

I keep wondering when Max gets any of the understanding and sympathy and maybe cutting him a break or two that Liz gets on a consistent basis.


I guess we are just going to continue to disagree. I don't think Liz ever had a choice in her decision. Her choice was to have Max and the world would end, or to have Max and stop him from accomplishing his mission to save his world. Liz was never going to selfishly choose herself over an entire planet of other people. So honestly, she had no choice. She was forcibly made to be a supporter of Max and Tess' relationship.


This would have actually turned out much differently, if Liz hadn't decided for Max that he needed to be with Tess, based on the mom-o-gram.

Liz had a choice in her decision. She could have waited for Max to explore what the options were when they were in the cave. She could have remembered what he said about making his own choices as to who he would be with. She could have waited for him to find out what the foursquare was really all about. If she had, the EotW would never have happened.


Liz was not suffocating because of Max, she was suffocating and paralyzed by the fact that one day he would tell her that he was in love with Tess and remembered his past life with her. That was what scared her and after Liz tells Max her greatest fear he goes and kisses Tess making her nightmare come true. lol.


I still don't have any sympathy for Liz, simply because she doesn't seem to realize that everything she said, and everything she did, led to the point where Max felt it was all over.

What else is he supposed to do? He's waited a year ... they've been broken up a year ... and all he's seen is that she wants to start a new life without him (and it doesn't matter that Liz is "doing this for Max" ). Max's perception is that she's moved on. Really, really moved on. She's avoided him for months, she has a new job, she's been back for two days and he now knows that Maria hadn't told him, she avoided him after she was back to the point where Maria is saying that he's a pronoun in her life.

Whatever her motivations, this is what he sees. He doesn't see what we as an audience see. She's told him that she can never find normal with him ... good Lord, the man had tears in his eyes, she'd so devastated him. He sees her with normal boys ... oh, look at her straddling Sean on the couch, Max. She accuses him of being okay with Sean being stabbed and demands that he heal him, and then flounces away when he can't. I'm suffocating and it's paralyzing that you might one day remember that you love Tess. And now that I've told you that, watch me dance with Maria like I don't have a care in the world anymore, my relief is so great.

This is what Max sees, what he's been fed, what he hears. He doesn't have the advantage of knowing what the audience knows. And this is on top of all the other things going on in his life, all the dangerous situations that he's faced with, all the decisions he has to make, hoping they're the right ones and not knowing squat.

I would be fine with cutting Liz some slack, if Max would be cut even the tiniest bit of slack in return.

Was forced in making and was forced into acting. I don't doubt for one minute that Liz would have chosen to take this route willingly. I can't belabor that point enough. It was no choice on her part at all. Context in Liz's actions is very much pertinent.


I don't agree that she was forced. She had the option of sticking with Max and letting him try and figure things out, or trying to figure them out together.

Max would have no credence or merit to stand on here either because he slept with Tess and arguably trusted her more then he did anyone else during the entire end of season two. lol. How would Max be right in this equation? He winds up looking bad either way. It was Future Max who convinced Liz to get Max to believe she moved on and inspire confidence in Tess and it was Max himself who took Tess up on all of her offers. So Max winds up trusting Tess both ways. He doesn't by any means look any better here.


If I felt that Max slept with Tess because he trusted her more than anyone else ...

But I don't. I don't think he slept with her because he made that decision. He slept with Tess because he was at the very end of all he could do, she found him, and he succumbed to having one person care about who he was and what he was going thru.

But,Max should never have been confused, he should have never been emotionally at rock bottom based on everything that went on in season 2.

If Max was a friend I do think he would have tried harder to understand where Liz was coming from.


LOL ... he did! Based on just Liz's word, he went to the sheriff. It's not his fault that he was bombarded by evidence that Liz never told him about.

And this does not take into account that the sheriff is probably the one person that Max trusts most now. The sheriff was Max's friend. He risked his life, he lost his job defending them. Every time something went on in season 2 that had Max in over his head, he went to the sheriff. He trusted him, as a mentor, a protector, the advisor that Nasedo never was!

And he did try. He can't help it that he's not convinced, or that he's more convinced by the sheriff than he is by her. He's entitled to his own opinion. He's allowed to be conflicted between the opinions of two people he cares about.

Liz was the one that decided that, if he didn't believe her, they couldn't work together. Again, she made that decision, not him. She asked him if he believed her, and he said no. He didn't lie to her. And she decided that they couldn't work together. He would have helped her anyway, because that's what Max would do for her.

In a lot of dreamer fic, unfortunately, Max's side isn't explored. I would again be willingly led to fics that go into Max's pov, but I really honestly can't think of many.
"It wasn't love at first sight. It took a full five minutes." ... Lucille Ball on meeting Desi Arnaz

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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Rowedog » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:51 pm

Please restrict your comments to the history of Roswell fanfiction. There are other threads for what you're discussing.
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Re: A History of Roswell Fanfic

Postby Athanasius » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:50 am

When Rosfic first started, by far the majority of fics were Candy (Michael/Maria). It probably accounted for two-thrids or more of the stories written. Dreamer (Max/Liz) was the second largest ship in fanfic, with Gazer (Isabel/Alex) coming a distant third.

Later there were a few Rebounder (Kyle/Tess) fics, or Lamptrimmer as the ship came to be known. And while there was a strong, vocal group of Rebels (Max/Tess) on the fan boards, strangely there were never many fics.

There were few unconventional fics for a long time, despite the fact that several UC couples were explored on the show. It took a while for the UC fics to really get going, but to this day they still only account for approx a quarter or less of fics written.

Different UC couples have been popular at different times, Polar (Michael/Liz) was the first to get going really, then Loyalists (Liz/Kyle) and Cliffhanger (Michael/Isabel). And as other new characters were introduced the couples in UC fics expanded, Stimulators (Michael/Courtney), Fantastics (Liz/Nasedo - in various forms), etc.

It was also about this time that slash (same sex) fics, especially male slash, and threesome fics started taking off. There had been a few here and there, but they became much more common. And we started seeing UC fics that paired characters with people from other shows, Liz/Angel (from Buffy), Michael/Phoebe (from Charmed), Liz/Daniel (from Stargate).

Also we started seeing UC fics featuring characters that were never together on the show, True Blue (Alex/Liz), Fifth Wheels (Alex/Tess), Remedialists (Maria/Kyle), Ground Zero or GZ (Max/Maria), Groupie (Maria/Alex), Jumper (Rath/Liz), Mental Vibrators (Michael/Tess). But there were only a few scattered stories, and the ships never really had huge followings.

The fan boards went crazy naming couples that I don't believe ever had stories written about them. If anyone knows where to find a Sugar Daddy (Liz/River Dog) fic, or Fugitive (Alex/Laurie Dupree) fic I'd really be surprised.

The number of Candy stories gradually lessened, and as the series came to an end, Dreamer stories were the majority of fics being written. For years now Dreamer fics have been at least sixty percent or more of all Rosfic written.

After Roswell was cancelled, there was a rise in male and female slash fics. Many Roswell same sex couples were explored, like Lipstick Abduction (Serena/Isabel), Catfighters (Liz/Tess), Buddha Healer (Kyle/Zan), Explosive Souls (Michael/Zan), to mention a few.

Also there were more UC and slash pairings of Roswell characters with charcters from other shows and books, such as Dark Angel, Stargate, Smallville, Harry Potter, One Tree Hill, Lost, Supernatural, Twilight, among others. Curiourly enough, most of these crossovers featured either Max or Liz in the main pairing.

From 2005-2008 UC and slash fics became even more common. There were several couples that rose in popularity at various times, and many stories were written about them; Deviant (Sean/Isabel), Fifth Wheel (Alex/Tess), In Crowder (Kyle/Isabel), Viper (Isabel/Khivar), Traitor (Liz/Khivar), Awakened Dreamer (Zan/Liz), Streetwalker (Rath/Maria), and Double Dipper (Max/Liz/Zan) fics were the most common.

In 2009 Dreamer fics continued to be the most popular ship, with the majority of fics written about them. Awakened Dreamer was the most written UC couple, and there was also a new interest in Polar fics.

2010 has really seen the re-emergence of the Polar fics, with the majority of UC fics being written about the couple. Awakened Dreamer fics have greatly declined, and slash fics have almost disappeared. There seems to be a bit of renewed interest in Crossover fics, mainly featuring Smallville, Dark Angel or Supernatural, and some are branching out into new areas including other TV shows, cartoons and movies.


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