Roswell Fanatics

Have you ever read another person's post and wondered if you hit your head, developed a slightly alternative version of self, went on-line and posted about Buffy on a Rosfic board? No? Well, it's pretty interesting experience.

Hehe, what an eloquent and erm, evocative way of saying that we've had a meeting of the minds on this topic.

OK, get ready, cause I suspect this may end up being a very long post.

Of course you're into religious studies! That makes so much sense given the way that you are developing your own kind of theology in "Ghost."

"What would Buffy do" I've seen that book! The nerdy Buffy books I have in my possession are "Fighting the Forces: What's at Stake in Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Reading the Vampire Slayer."

OK, just for kicks - these are some of the titles of papers I've written about Buffy:

"Buffy and Fanfic in Dialogue: a three dimensional interactive model for textual expansion and meaning production"

"Buffy Vs. Dracula: Postmodern Parody ReVamps the Gothic"

I'd be curious to find out what your paper is about.

The feminist scholars are very into the Buffy. Yes indeedy. And I agree with you about the finale - it's like they were trying to lay down the point that in case anybody was still wondering, yes it's a feminist show.

The part that really got me was the montage scene when the potentials are all becoming slayers. See, the two main things that get me teary in movies and TV are when women are getting empowered or men with babies. Definitely got me into some kinda embarrassing situations a couple years back when we watched documentaries about suffragettes in a feminist historiography class I was taking.

Oooh and just in case you're interested - here's the link to a thread I've been posting in where we discuss various issues having to do with Roswell, metaphor and various other nerdy questions.

viewtopic.php?t=9283

A friend of mine and I took a Buffy break today. Storyteller anyone? I know Andrew annoys some folks but he just cracks me up.

femmenerd wrote: Of course you're into religious studies! That makes so much sense given the way that you are developing your own kind of theology in "Ghost."

It's so fascinating to me that that's your reaction. Yay, it does make sense, doesn't it... It's so amazing how fanfic is a merging of show and self. You, well maybe you wouldn't, but some folks would be surprised how much editing I have to do on myself. Let's just say in prior versions Alex was quoting Rabia here and there.

I'll be interested too to see how people react to the end of the thing... it's, well, I really shouldn't talk about it I suppose, but it definitely reflects the studying and research I've done in human behavior - also a part of my program - as well as my own theology. Yay. But first must get to that part, which means I first must finish this next part. Stupid life zapping my creative energy.

Oh, and I too am a Buffy nerd in possession of those books (though I have the first ed of Reading the Vampire Slayer). Next on my list, BtVS and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in Sunnydale. I also occasionally check out Slayage, the online international journal. Hey, you should think about contributing on of your papers (which by the way sound quite interesting) to said journal. It's just on-line, but that would be fun.

I'd be curious to find out what your paper is about.

It takes a look at power and principalities as defined by William Stringfellow in season 7 of Buffy.

What are powers and principalities? Oy. That's a tough question. Do you happen to remember Of Mice and Men (not to be all Maxian here)? In it there's a passage where a neighbor is about to bulldoze another neighbor's house because he owes money to the bank. When the farmers protest, the owners of the bank say "We're sorry. It's not us. It's the monster. The bank isn't like a man."
Farmers: "But the bank is only made of men."
Owners: "No, you're wrong there - quite wrong there. The bank is something else than men. It happens that every man in a bank hates what the bank does, and yet the bank does it."

The bank is beyond human control even though it appears to be made only of humans. But it's not - there's something else there. Enter powers and principalities. The powers, in Stringfellow's understanding, were created by God yet have rebelled. These rebellious powers have strategies in which to trap us (like 8 or so, all of which appear in Buffy). Yet though we can never fully redeem the powers (that's God's business) we can work towards that redemption with the Big Cheese.

The powers and principalities are why, for example, we can not hold a person who does something horrible solely responsible and yet also why we must hold them partially responsible of their participation with the powers.

I realize that sounds all very nebulas, but it's kinda hard to explain... especially after some good Guinness.

Anyway, I think where I'm going with it is that while Buffy too is part of the powers (that whole origin of a slayer stuff), she challenges the strategies of these powers in such a way that she breaks through, just a little bit. I'm interested in the role Spike and Willow play in this season.

The part that really got me was the montage scene when the potentials are all becoming slayers. See, the two main things that get me teary in movies and TV are when women are getting empowered or men with babies. Definitely got me into some kinda embarrassing situations a couple years back when we watched documentaries about suffragettes in a feminist historiography class I was taking.

Oh, oh, the tears, the tears. I almost kissed my tv when that montage came on, and that speech. You may already know this but for those who don't, I think what sums up the show for me so well is that montage and specifically that the shot of the girl stopping that hand that's about to hit her and standing up was the very last shot filmed for the show.

You just can't do any better than that.

When I've got more brain functions I'll have to check that thread out. Love me some good conversation.

Hello, hello. Bear with me. I've been at the bar for a bit so I may get a bit sloppy. Oy and I have to go to work tomorrow.

I find this quote from your last post quite fascinating...

It's so amazing how fanfic is a merging of show and self.

That's a really good way to think about the way that fanfic represents a kind of active, creative spectatorship. One of the things that is so interesting to me when I read other peoples stories is the fact that we are all working from the same source text - we've all seen Roswell. So it is so obvious and interesting to observe how a fan fiction story is someone else's interpretation of said material.

As might be obvious from my posts, I'm a bit of an analyzer, someone who considers thinking to be a major activity. I just graduated from undergrad (I started late) at UC Santa Cruz with a double degree in Women's studies and Film and Digital Media. I basically killed myself during school (2 majors, taught a class, wrote a senior thesis, edited the film journal) and have since found myself exhausted. I want to teach and I'm planning on applying to PHD programs in media studies - my focus is on television and gender studies. Anyway, I have a hard time being idle and I'm one for obsessions (or let's call them passions) and since I graduated I have gone full tilt into an obsession with fanfiction and fandom in general. It fits right in with my work actually. But it's very interesting to me how differently I think about this world since I am immersed in it, writing my fics and not just standing in an academic tower considering the topic in a detached manner.

It's funny, I've been treating it sort of like I'm researching a paper. I'm reading all the scholarly work on K/S slash currently.

I am vaguely aware of slayage.net My thesis advisor is actually listed on that site. I just might submit some of my papers. That would be interesting. I've been thinking about writing a first person piece about fandom and submitting it to somewhere like Bitch magazine.

This might be a random connection but what you're saying about "powers and principalities" reminds me of Hannah Arendt's book about Eichmann and the Holocaust - about the question of evil and responsibility in terms of someone who was a cog in a machine.

Oh season 7 of Buffy. That shot where the sort of bigger girl stands up to what appears to be an abuser is the most memorable part of the episode for me. I had no idea that that was the last bit shot. Interesting extratextual info. I too thought that the whole origin of the slayers thing was very interesting and ultimately rather vague. It's interesting to consider what I think is part of what you are proposing, and that is that although the origin of the slayers involved a kind of transgression by these powerful men but that ultimately Buffy chooses to subvert that original scenario and claim her own power AND share it with other girls.

Also - the fact that they made the big bad in Season 7 - Caleb - basically an incarnation of Patriachy. Dirty Girls - gives me shivers.

Lately what I'm fascinated with in terms of fanfic, especially NC17 fanfic, is the way that it is a kind of shared fantasy - an economy of fantasy and desire in which women (cause really this is basically an all female community) are negotiating power and gender relations.

Well, I'm getting sleepy and running out of steam so I'll stop the babbling for now. BTW I've been enjoying this little dialogue type thing we're having here. And I'm now very intrigued to see where you're going with "Ghost" not that I wasn't already.

Dear god I should be sleeping... soooooo much work tomorrow and no time for naps. And yet, I can't let another day go by without responding... been putting it off for a time when I can "think well" too long. Should know by now that those times of no distraction and clear thinking are few and far between.

That's a really good way to think about the way that fanfic represents a kind of active, creative spectatorship. One of the things that is so interesting to me when I read other peoples stories is the fact that we are all working from the same source text - we've all seen Roswell. So it is so obvious and interesting to observe how a fan fiction story is someone else's interpretation of said material.

This is what I do - I mean, not with the Ros text, but other texts. Interpretations, mine, others, where they intersect, where they don't, why the similiarities or differences... I love it! The threads on the Fanfic Discussion board that are dealing with different opinions (why au, polar/gz) interest me because the inner narrative of people whose outernarrative we know is coming out.

I'm a bit of an analyzer, someone who considers thinking to be a major activity. I just graduated from undergrad (I started late) at UC Santa Cruz with a double degree in Women's studies and Film and Digital Media.

You're killing me here. Like I said, analyzation is what I do - of texts, of individuals, of groups (I have a very full job ) and thinking, goodness... it's an obssession. I think, and I think, and I think, and I often get myself into trouble because I think too much.

Congrats on graduating! I myself was a religion major, gender studies minor (my school for some reason frowned upon double majors so though I had the credits, it wasn't worth the hassle for the difference). I think women's or gender studies is truly the perfect compliment to any degree.

But it's very interesting to me how differently I think about this world since I am immersed in it, writing my fics and not just standing in an academic tower considering the topic in a detached manner.

Praise the Lord for that! Xander needs to take his wrecking ball and go bowling with those towers. That's one of feminism's greatest contributions to academia - the priority of experience. Too much reason does a body no good.

I am vaguely aware of slayage.net My thesis advisor is actually listed on that site. I just might submit some of my papers. That would be interesting. I've been thinking about writing a first person piece about fandom and submitting it to somewhere like Bitch magazine.

Oh you should, you should. If I have the time to dedicate on this project/paper I'm doing to make it quality, I plan on submitting it. Can't hurt. And I love Bitch. I think a pov piece would be an excellent contribution to that mag or another like it.

This might be a random connection but what you're saying about "powers and principalities" reminds me of Hannah Arendt's book about Eichmann and the Holocaust - about the question of evil and responsibility in terms of someone who was a cog in a machine.

I haven't read her book though I have heard about the controversy it stirred. From what I remember, I think that's a good application of the phrase. It's never either/or it's a both/and (as anything post modern is going to be!) So both the cog and the machine are the causes of evil. The cog - a person - could choose not to be a part of the machine, but then where would it go? It could do that but it's life would be much, much more challenging... And the machine, even though it appears to be made up only of cogs, there's something more to it.

Okay, that didn't make much sense... let me try again.

Principalities - the organization of power; the person in office. A principality is made then of both the person and the office. While I would argue that Buffy fights these, she herself could be considered a principalitiy. She is Buffy the Vampire Slayer - the person and the office.

Powers - the right or authority to exercise power; it's the justifcations, the reasons why things are the way they are, the legitimations (laws, customs, etc)... one way to fight powers is to call them on their justifications - like you mentioned, Buffy does this when she challenges the rules of the Slayer line - one girl because a bunch of men who died long ago made it up.

Also - the fact that they made the big bad in Season 7 - Caleb - basically an incarnation of Patriachy. Dirty Girls - gives me shivers.

It's also really interesting that Caleb was on at the same time Jasmine was on Angel. You have the symbol of organized religion being bad and then this woman who in so many ways is the image of an ideal God - what she says is what I'd want God to say to me, all that love language - and she's actually rotting flesh, etc... Very, very interesting. I know Joss is an atheist but you have to wonder if something wasn't going on at that particular moment in time for him.

Lately what I'm fascinated with in terms of fanfic, especially NC17 fanfic, is the way that it is a kind of shared fantasy - an economy of fantasy and desire in which women (cause really this is basically an all female community) are negotiating power and gender relations.

That's really interesting... I'd be curious to see that view of fanfic discussed with the important of relationships feminists also bring us.... I'm thinking along the lines of Carol Gilligan here... hmmm.

Well, I'm getting sleepy and running out of steam so I'll stop the babbling for now. BTW I've been enjoying this little dialogue type thing we're having here.

Ditto

I loved Buffy, but seeing as how both Angel and Buffy are over, I WANTED A HAPPY ENDING BETWEEN THEM! They're my favorite tv couple besides Max and Liz, and never got to be together, I was so sad

maxandliz4ever1357 wrote:I loved Buffy, but seeing as how both Angel and Buffy are over, I WANTED A HAPPY ENDING BETWEEN THEM! They're my favorite tv couple besides Max and Liz, and never got to be together, I was so sad

Well, that's why fanfiction is so great! I know I want better things for my Max and Liz so that's why I write it myself. I mean I realize that for the purposes of serial narrative, things can never be really "settled" for the lead characters but...

OK, Ms. Doublestuf, let's see if I can properly illustrate my understanding of what you've been saying about powers and principalities using the example of George W. Bush.

He embodies the office of president of the United States, one that preexisted him and will continue to exist after he no longer holds that position but for now he is the living, breathing incarnation of that office. This is the principalities part.

The powers then would include the constitution and structural make up of how US government is organized. In the case of Bush, it also includes conservative ideology.

Interpretations, mine, others, where they intersect, where they don't, why the similiarities or differences... I love it! The threads on the Fanfic Discussion board that are dealing with different opinions (why au, polar/gz) interest me because the inner narrative of people whose outernarrative we know is coming out.

I'm text obsessed myself. Texts are how both how we work to understand and make sense of our world and also the common language through which we communicate about it.

And the thinking, boy oh boy do I have a hard time not thinking. Explains my chronic insomnia. In terms of Buffy and other TV shows, some people have a hard time watching TV with me 'cause I'm always remarking on issues in the shows and how they relate to the world at large. People, (especially my students) always ask me if studying TV and film ruins the pleasure of it for me and I always tell me that analyzing visual texts is just another kind of pleasure in viewing for me.

I think women's or gender studies is truly the perfect compliment to any degree.

I so agree. It was definitely interesting for me to go from women's studies to the Film department where women are notably in the minority. In women's studies, even if I didn't agree with everyone (which I didn't) there was always at least this assumption that we all cared about the world, had a political position. In the world of Film studies I definitely felt like I stood in for something and also stood out like a sore thumb as I was one of the few women that spoke in class. It was a different case with the professors - but with the majority of the students...

But it was good, because in the Film department I actually felt like I was making some kind of intervention. But it definitely helps to have a "home" amongst like minded others to give you strength for when you go out and 'wage battle" or whatever.

At the time that it was on, Jasmine kind of made me uneasy in some ways. There was just a part of me that wondered why the first woman of color with any sizeable part in the buffyverse had to be the bad guy. Of course it was more complicated than that but that's how I remember feeling.

Yeah and atheist or not, Joss was definitely delving deep into the worlds of spirituality and the power of religion and mythology.

Oh and thanks for your comments on my story at the Love Shack. See now why I'm so invested in the ins and outs (bad pun) of NC17 fanfic? It's so funny, sometimes when I'm writing sex scenes, this little voice goes off in my brain being like - that's hot...but are you being a responsible little feminist smut writer?

Tee Hee.

maxandliz4ever1357 wrote:I loved Buffy, but seeing as how both Angel and Buffy are over, I WANTED A HAPPY ENDING BETWEEN THEM! They're my favorite tv couple besides Max and Liz, and never got to be together, I was so sad

femmenerd is right! That's what makes fanfic so much fun.

You know, that reminds me of part of why I love Buffy so much. Whenever I watch seasons 1-4 I think "I heart Buffy and Angel." Then, whenever I watch 5-7, it's "Spuffy, Spuffy!!!" A show can give me both pairings, make me love both, and not feel wrong about it? It's brilliant! I mean, in the finale begins with me going "Be cookies, be cookies" and ends with "Sniff, no silly Spike, she really does love you, sniff." Sigh. Love it.

femmenerd: Yay you! Any grad program would be lucky to have such a smart chickadee - excellent use of the concepts (and don't think we don't talk about that fellow lots... must remember, not solely to blame, more to it than him, yet still responsible...)

I'm text obsessed myself. Texts are how both how we work to understand and make sense of our world and also the common language through which we communicate about it.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! There are oral texts, too, and public transcripts and hidden transcripts, and oh, I love it! Such good brainy stuff.

And the thinking, boy oh boy do I have a hard time not thinking. Explains my chronic insomnia. In terms of Buffy and other TV shows, some people have a hard time watching TV with me 'cause I'm always remarking on issues in the shows and how they relate to the world at large. People, (especially my students) always ask me if studying TV and film ruins the pleasure of it for me and I always tell me that analyzing visual texts is just another kind of pleasure in viewing for me.

Tehee... I was lucky to have friends who either had similar interests or could just appreciate mine. We still have great discussions on the various levels of meaning in Buffy... And how can studying something ruin it? Okay, nevermind, I know that answer to that, but I would love to know more about the medium of film and television to appreciate the layers of meaning I can't right now. One of my favorite things about studying ancient religious texts is the subtext within - it's like a big freakin' treasure hunt. I love knowing that the use of a certain word is intended to recall this whole other text, which gives the one you're studying a new meaning. Oh, I'm such a big dork, but it gives me shivers.

At the time that it was on, Jasmine kind of made me uneasy in some ways. There was just a part of me that wondered why the first woman of color with any sizeable part in the buffyverse had to be the bad guy. Of course it was more complicated than that but that's how I remember feeling.

A good friend of mine who I watched the Buffyverse with mentioned that - she's more sensitive to issues of racism than I am (which is why you should always be friends with folks who have different strengths and areas of sensitivity). I try to go "lalala" but I know that's not responsible. I understand that Joss just really liked the actress, having worked with her on Firefly, but still... Why did Kendra have to bite it so soon? Why didn't we ever get another strong, significant woman of color who wasn't a bad guy?

Yeah and atheist or not, Joss was definitely delving deep into the worlds of spirituality and the power of religion and mythology.

Have you ever read the book Godless? I think of Joss as the main character - a kid who didn't find a connection with faith in anything, so he created his own religion. Sometimes I wonder if that's part of what's up with Joss. He's suggested as much in a few interviews.

Oh, as a person who studies film, you might have an interesting perspective on this article from Slayage. It's called "It’s Bloody Brilliant!" The Undermining of Metanarrative Feminism in the Season Seven Arc Narrative of Buffy.

Ooo, also noticed 2 new books I may have to check out to fulfill my Buffynerd quota - Why Buffy Matters and Sex and the Slayer... intriguing!

I'm back. I'm back. The silly board didn't email me to tell me that a reply had been posted so I only knew to come over here from your pm Ms. DoubleTroubleStuf.

I totally agree with what you said about Buffy's ability to really suck you in and bring you along for different relationships and emotions and stuff. I am currently rewatching the show from the beginning with my boyfriend and remembering my love for the Angel even though I know in the end I will get lured back into the Spuffy love nest in my mind.

I also have friends who are Buffy fanatics and one in particular with whom I was able to wax philosophical about the buffyverse. He's a history grad student who is going to go into teaching African American studies so we also got to have a little interdisciplinary action going on. But the main people I've gotten to talk about it with in that way are another grad student friend of mine and my undergrad advisor who, as I said, is listed on slayage.net as a "Buffy scholar."

I would love to know more about the medium of film and television to appreciate the layers of meaning I can't right now. One of my favorite things about studying ancient religious texts is the subtext within - it's like a big freakin' treasure hunt. I love knowing that the use of a certain word is intended to recall this whole other text, which gives the one you're studying a new meaning. Oh, I'm such a big dork, but it gives me shivers.

I have two words for ya lady - "intertextuality" and "polysemy" yeah huh.

Excitin'

Why did Kendra have to bite it so soon? Why didn't we ever get another strong, significant woman of color who wasn't a bad guy?

Yes and why did Kendra have to be so annoying? Sorry she just drove me nuts. That accent was not a good thing.

I will report back when I've read that article. Ooh, ooh and I'm excited to hear about those new books. Right now I'm still reading about those pioneering ladies writing Star Trek fan erotica when I'm not reading or writing fanfic.

Got a question about one of the episodes. I know this epi was a long time ago, but remember the one where the demon injected something into her? And she thought she was in the mental hospital and she wasn't the slayer, and nothing existed? Well in the end of that one, after she gives up on the whole 'I'm not really here, I'm in a mental hospital' idea and saves her friends, we go back to the other world (I guess ) and the docter shines the light into her eyes, and says something like, "I'm sorry, we've lost her."

They never explained that, and I don't get it! Were the writers trying to hint that it was actually real or what?

That episode was called "Normal Again" and it was in Season 6. I only watched it once when it aired I think and that, obviously was awhile ago.

It was very vague really and you're right it did hint at the fact that maybe the "alternate universe" was really the real one. Just to freak us the hell out!

It really disturbed me a lot actually and I think that's part of why I basically blocked it out. lol I just absolutely hated the idea of my butt kicking super girl actually being a delusional with no power. It just went against so much of what the show was about for me.