Tess: Evil or Misguided?

[Coccy]

back on topic, here two posts made by another poster on another board that i think that can provide an interesting insight about Max and even about "evil" Tess (that is the point of the topic)

rbrtck - roswell IMDB

I think that all Antarians are innately ruthless and heartless, often filled with passion but rarely endowed with compassion. When placed on Earth and made partly human, however, the royals were given the potential of having human emotions and true brotherly love for one another, as well as feeling a need for these emotions to be directed at them. Obviously Tess was raised differently, so she never became separated or developed far away from her alien essence, while the others were essentially brand new human beings (plus powers) with their alien essences buried deep inside. While Tess began to feel more human after a while, her alien essence never lost its grip on her and she never lost sight of what she really wanted and what she really was, an alien.

For comparison, Max was so hurt by Liz's inexplicably despicable treatment of him (due to Future Max) that he finally succumbed to his psychopathic (by human standards) alien essence that had been fighting for his soul ever since Tess showed up and sort of "awakened" it. However, his alien "side" would never have won this battle if Liz hadn't broken his heart and shattered his view of humanity and sense of "home" so thoroughly. Perhaps Tess could have been saved had there been more time, or maybe her alien essence was simply stronger than her innate humanity--we'll never really know.

The way I've always viewed this aspect of the story, past the finale of season 1, anyway, is that the royal family of Antar were always weak leaders who played a major part in screwing everything up, and furthermore that all Antarians and associated aliens are jerks by human standards, with no real compassion or love in their hearts. Although the physical definition of how the Antarian royals were manifest as humans varied throughout the series, they were influenced by their human components and presumably how they were nurtured to the point where their alien essences were suppressed, making them new and very human people. This became painfully obvious, in contrast, when Max was all but forced to embrace his alien side in season 2, whereupon the Max that we knew so well completely disappeared for a while, dominated by the alien essence from his previous life. He did so because Liz took away her love for him, which in turn took away the ability to love (true love --not alien-love ) that made him human.

The whole point of the story has always been the metaphor of being an "alien" when you're young and discovering where you fit in, and in the end Max, Isabel, and Michael were humans, in every important way, who found their place in life, never completely fitting in, but belonging on their new planet with their fellow humans (they didn't belong on Antar anyway, at least as rulers, which was stressed in the series finale). Those they have "touched" also carry part of their essence, showing I guess that there is always going to be a bit of alien in all of us, even when we've found our path, and it can positively influence or even save others when we choose to do good.

of course it's an interpretation of the canon and different people can perceive things differently but i find it interesting and i agree for the most part
also, this makes me remember what Langley told Max about the alien side
not to mention the commentaries from the DVDs made by Katims&Co.

[Sin]

My impression is that some people hated that storyline, hated that Liz had to lie but they don't want to blame Liz (because after all she believed that she was doing the right thing. Also because they identify with her) so instead of blaming Liz because she chose to not tell him the truth sooner and damaged their relationship people blame Max because he was oblivious and he couldn't read in her mind and "do all the work" in order to have the dreamer relationship back.

I don't agree with this because I feel that the show was fine until ITBAITL. It doesn't bother me that Liz lied, she had to, if she didn't do what Future Max asked of her then she would have been selfish and to a certain extent morally wrong and evil. She had no real choice in the matter. She had to do what was right which was save the world and at the end of the day I don't think Liz ended up really changing much in terms of their relationship. Yes she may have stopped them from being romantically involved but they were still close, they were still friends, they still loved each other. We could see that in various episodes. So no I don't think she really changed much. What I think changed things was Alex's death which was Tess' fault and Max sleeping with her, Liz was involved in a rather indirect way in this because had she and Max been together Tess would have left long ago and Alex wouldn't have been left vulnerable to Tess but that isn't so much Liz's fault (or Future Max's) it's Tess' fault.

As for him "doing all the work" he didn't really have to do much of anything to get Liz back so I don't get what you are saying there.

Because that's what people wanted from Max: a miracle.

How was it a miracle for him not to sleep with Tess? I really don't understand you here. It makes it seem as if Max had to sleep with Tess or something.

Very high and unrealistic expectations IMO.

I don't understand what was high or unrealistic here either. It's not as if Max had to sleep with her. He could have easily chosen not to. To make it sound different makes it seem as if he had no free will or like he was a high school kid who just wanted to have sex and was out for an easy person to sleep with.

Basically Max's fault is that he didn't stop a lie that Liz created and that he didn't know what it was a lie.

That's not it what so ever. Perhaps I failed to accomplish my point but the problem with that storyline was that it proved that Max's love for Liz wasn't what it was said to be. It wasn't all that special, unconditional, monogamous, all encompassing or all consuming if he was able to share himself in a similar way with Tess.

Totally different examples yet the same unreasonable and biased logic IMO.

Those two situations aren't the same what so ever. LOL. That's not what is being said nor is that logic being used.

It seems to me that you are fond of *Liz* and just want to prove that Liz was better than Max.

That wasn't the purpose of my posts. Whenever Liz is brought up naturally comparisons are made, we are in general talking about the dreamer relationship at the moment so comparisons will likely manifest during these discussions. Do I believe that Liz was more true to their relationship? Yes. Of course. How could someone look at the end of season two and think differently? But my main point here is discussing why it was such a big deal that Max was with Tess in the end of season two and the impact and why people are upset.

again, I feel that for some Max's only purpose in the series was to love her (while on the other hand Liz had the right to have a life outside Max and she's called doormat when she doesn't for a while. Max couldn't have a life outside her and when he had one he's called bad. )

I don't agree here either. It's not that Max's only purpose was to love Liz. Was that what Roswell was about at the core of the series? Yes. I don't really think anyone who saw the show can say that Liz and Max aren't pretty much THE show. Moreover Max ALWAYS had a life outside of Liz on the show. Max always had storylines separate from Liz in all the seasons. While Liz was very much of the time usually confined to Max and was basically always reacting to him as a character. She didn't have a life in season 1 outside of Max, she didn't have a life outside of Max in season 3 outside of the time where she left Roswell because Max was causing her too much pain and even then the only thing she did during that time was moon over him and how she felt. Max always had a life outside of Liz it seemed. While Liz barely had one separate from him. I feel like you are using general sweeping terms here it's not at all that Max having a life outside of Liz was bad, it's just that Liz was never afforded the same luxury it seemed.

Loving her was a part of him but he's a character like the others too and it's not that he's just the guy who loved Liz like you make it seems.

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that the thing that made Max special and different from all the others was the way in which he loved Liz. That's what made him special and that's what made him different and in my opinion better than a lot of the typical leading males in teen shows. That's what put him apart (and the show for that matter) from others who had similar story arcs.

My impression when i read some posts is that you put them against each other and want to prove who loved more between the two because you love Liz as a character more than Max.

It's not that I love Liz more or I hate Max or anything. I am just talking about what went wrong in season two and how it had a huge effect on the show and how the show never recovered from what took place in ITBAITL.

To do that you should equally analyze both their POVs but i feel that you always talk about her pov and minimize his feelings in order to prove your point.

You keep saying this and I don't see where I didn't use his point of view. Ultimately i think what you are saying is that I am not changing my opinion on things just because I can see things from Max's POV. As to diminishing his feelings I don't believe I ever did that. I think I am just taking things from what the show showed us and a lot of the times they didn't show too much insight into the Max character.

For me he didn't think that his first time was worth it anymore. This doesn't mean that he could sleep with anyone just for this reason, the fact that he slept with Tess only in the end when it was the worst time of his life speaks volumes to me. He didn't even use protection . He clearly wasn't himself and you said it too. And If he wasn't really himself in that moment then he wasn't the Max that valued sex so much.

This doesn't change his actions though, or how he felt about the sex. He wanted to have sex with Tess and let her in to go towards his alien side, he wanted to start something with her and he felt that the best way to be close to Tess would be to sleep with her, -you keep making it sound as if Max was just this guy that didn't think sex was meaningful or as if Max was just scratching an itch that's not what it was about-. The sex was a symbol that he wanted to start something with Tess.

As you said yourself they had to be physical with one another to make that relationship. I think it just proved how far Max was willing to go to be with Tess and it's clear that once he did have sex with her he had regret from his actions because he felt that it was wrong to sleep with her and he felt that it was a mistake we could tell that Max knew it was wrong. If Max felt that sex was just sex he wouldn't have cared. Again he was weak here. He was just doing things because he wanted to feel better rather then doing the hard thing and doing the right thing which would have been to not sleep with her. Max changed in that moment and the heart of the dreamer relationship and the Roswell show died then.

anyway we always assume that Max felt that his first time was important but in the show he never talked about it. He never talked about sex, in the first place. Nothing in the show suggests this idea that he valued sex so much.

Except for the fact that he was so angry that Liz slept with Kyle. If Max was a guy that thought sex didn't matter than he wouldn't have been so upset with Liz and he wouldn't of treated her like he did. If he was able to reconcile that sex didn't mean anything I doubt he would have cared. It's because it did mean something that he ended up being so upset and heartbroken. Other wise what was the point? Even Future Max saw that as being the breaking point who was just a further extension of Max himself.

If even Liz who knew the truth and didn't endure what Max had to endure got her temptation ..
The scene showed that everyone in a bad moment can fall in this "trap" and use people as rebounds.

I don't see it that way. For me it was more about the fact that after everything Liz went through she really had nothing left. She didn't have Max, she knew that Max slept with Tess, was leaving Earth, that a murder was on the loose trying to kill her, her best friend died, and everything that she did was to benefit Max in the end and he was leaving. Yet she was still capable of not doing what Max did. I personally find her situation worse then Max's. At least Max could see Liz every day, still be her friend, still be around her. But Liz was losing Max to Tess forever in that moment and yet she was still able to not do what Max did. I am not trying to compare the two as I know that upsets some, but I am just saying how I saw the scene. I don't really care about Liz and Sean making out because as we have seen Sean was pretty much useless as far as Liz was concerned. She used him as a distraction (which was wrong) but she didn't care about him or love him in anyway and he just disappeared after Departure anyway.

Honestly if Liz had slept with Sean i wouldn't have crucified her for it.
I can dislike some things but i can still understand why they happen.

Well it would have never have happened, just because it's not in Liz's character to do things like that. I think that scene proved that if nothing else.

I related more to him when he was imperfect than when he was perfect

Max was never perfect. This was a line that got crossed that stripped Roswell and Max of the things that made them different, special and refreshing.

No one said that in order to love someone and to have a special relationship you have to be perfect.

I don't think Max was ever perfect, neither was Liz. But the one thing that I always valued about them was the way that they loved each other and that was taken when they had Max willingly open up to Tess in a way he only previously did with Liz in ITBAITL and BIY as well as other episodes like HOM and MITC.

The pretext that for the others sex means nothing doesn't make sense to me because fallowing your own logic if Liz is "the one" for a guy he simply can't sleep with other women because Liz is everything he can see.

My view on it is that if other guys in fanfiction have meaningless sex with another woman it doesn't diminish the way that they feel about Liz because it's in their character to sleep around. Not like Max who doesn't view sex as meaningless. The fact that he slept with Tess meant that he wanted to be closer to her, wanted to be with her and wanted to start something with her. He even says that he is ready to wake up now (which pretty much says to me that he is ready to be with her). That to me diminishes the dreamer relationship. If the others who are only having sex to numb themselves or just for pleasure then that doesn't take away from the meaningful relationship they share with Liz (if the story is written as if Liz is the one special person in their life). Again I don't even care if the men in these stories are virgins either, I don't think that diminishes the love story because they either haven't met Liz yet or haven't realized that they love her or see something special in her, etc.

similar? but that's not true. He never shared with her the same bond he shared with Liz.

It wasn't exactly the same, but he even tells Liz in Departure that he does somewhat love her. We see him letting her in, telling her his fears about Alex (something he didn't do with Isabel or Liz), we see them connecting over old memories, we see that they become a lot closer and he even ends up confiding in her and only her at times during HOM, CYN, OTM, and other episodes. It's obvious that Tess and Max had some sort of relationship even if it wasn't directly specified. My main point here is that Max had a real or psudeo-romantic relationship with Tess and he let her in to a part of himself that previously only Liz had seen. Which meant that to me him loving Liz in that way wasn't as special as it once was in season one where all he wanted was her, all he saw was her, his greatest dream was to be with her. It was as if those feelings were fleeting here and didn't matter to him during very important parts of the show.

Their mistakes only made them stronger.

I think that it ruined everything that made them transcendent.

He basically admitted that he wasn't the most perfect person of the world but loving her was the only right thing of his life.

Of course, what else was he supposed to say after it was revealed that Tess duped him?

I hate this phrase just because I think it's so dumb. It's a substitution and it cheapens the way you truly feel about the person you love and also degrades the person you are settling for.

I think this deserved to be said again.

On Topic

I think Tess was just evil. Again she didn't care about family, friendship or even love for the most part all she wanted was to be Queen and go home.

[Coccy]

As for him "doing all the work" he didn't really have to do much of anything to get Liz back so I don't get what you are saying there.

Because that's what people wanted from Max: a miracle.

How was it a miracle for him not to sleep with Tess? I really don't understand you here. It makes it seem as if Max had to sleep with Tess or something.

Very high and unrealistic expectations IMO.

I don't understand what was high or unrealistic here either. It's not as if Max had to sleep with her. He could have easily chosen not to. To make it sound different makes it seem as if he had no free will or like he was a high school kid who just wanted to have sex and was out for an easy person to sleep with.

*facepalm*
I'm starting to believe that maybe i'm not writing in english (possible since it's not my main language) so my posts are hard to understand or something LOL
I never said that he had to sleep with Tess.
When i said "a miracle" and "high expectations" i was talking about the fact that he didn't know the truth about Liz and he couldn't know the truth about her if Liz herself didn't tell him and didn't want him to know. The only one who could finally end the drama was Liz. His POV about her was completely different from yours and it makes totally sense that from his pov he had no hopes for him and Liz because she made it pretty clear that she didn't want to be with him and even told him that she was ok about him moving on with Tess.
Because he didn't know the truth he reacted the way he reacted. This goes even beyond sleeping with Tess.

That's not it what so ever. Perhaps I failed to accomplish my point but the problem with that storyline was that it proved that Max's love for Liz wasn't what it was said to be. It wasn't all that special, unconditional, monogamous, all encompassing or all consuming if he was able to share himself in a similar way with Tess.

and my opinion is that you judge him partially for one moment (that is horrid but understandable for the reasons i already stated) totally forgetting/minimizing everything he had always done for her before and after that moment.

That wasn't the purpose of my posts. Whenever Liz is brought up naturally comparisons are made, we are in general talking about the dreamer relationship at the moment so comparisons will likely manifest during these discussions.

actually the topic was about evil Tess not Max and Liz.
"evil Max vs saint Liz" was the OT that you felt the need to make here too.

I don't agree here either. It's not that Max's only purpose was to love Liz. Was that what Roswell was about at the core of the series? Yes. I don't really think anyone who saw the show can say that Liz and Max aren't pretty much THE show. Moreover Max ALWAYS had a life outside of Liz on the show. Max always had storylines separate from Liz in all the seasons. While Liz was very much of the time usually confined to Max and was basically always reacting to him as a character. She didn't have a life in season 1 outside of Max, she didn't have a life outside of Max in season 3 outside of the time where she left Roswell because Max was causing her too much pain and even then the only thing she did during that time was moon over him and how she felt. Max always had a life outside of Liz it seemed. While Liz barely had one separate from him. I feel like you are using general sweeping terms here it's not at all that Max having a life outside of Liz was bad, it's just that Liz was never afforded the same luxury it seemed.

i disagree. Liz has so much a life outside Max that when they were falling in Chant down babylon the flash of her life were about him, her friends and her parents while Max's were only about her.

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that the thing that made Max special and different from all the others was the way in which he loved Liz. That's what made him special and that's what made him different and in my opinion better than a lot of the typical leading males in teen shows. That's what put him apart (and the show for that matter) from others who had similar story arcs.

the way he loved Liz is visible in the whole series. Again i don't think that he could have proved to love Liz only by not sleeping with Tess especially in that specific moment. He never was the typical male character.
Just because he made a mistake once it doesn't mean that everything he did before and after that moment should be deleted like if it never existed.

This doesn't change his actions though, or how he felt about the sex.

again even assuming that he valued it so much it doesn't mean that he couldn't still make a mistake
also you said it: he wasn't himself so it didn't matter what the real Max (or at least the more rational one) thought, anyway.
if he wasn't himself then what his real seal previously thought is irrelevant in that moment.

He wanted to have sex with Tess and let her in to go towards his alien side

he wanted to find peace. He gave up about destiny because everything seemed to tell him that he was a loser who kept dreaming about something that he couldn't have and that Liz herself didn't believe anymore. and of course Tess was manipulating his feelings and basically told him that his life wasn't real and antar was real, that he had to wake up only like that he could be happy again.
Even Liz told him to wake up.
and He surely woke up the day after only to find himself into another nightmare.

he wanted to start something with her and he felt that the best way to be close to Tess would be to sleep with her

exactly. If they had a real emotional and natural bond he wouldn't need to do that. He wanted to feel something.

The sex was a symbol that he wanted to start something with Tess.

i'm a dreamer but Max had every right to start something with her if he wanted.
He was free. Love Liz or not, she didn't want to be with him.
But i don't even think that he actually wanted to start something with her. It's not that he programmed what happened (he even told Michael and Isabel) and it didn't seem to me that he was happy the day after.
In the "feet" scene that another poster cited Tess basically asked Max "where they were" since it didn't seem that they were a couple even after they kissed in Heart of Mine.
Max told her something that speaks volumes for me and pretty summarize what he felt toward Tess and a possible relationship with her.
Now, i don't know about you but personally i wouldn't like so much it if a guy basically tells me that he isn't sure that he wants to start a relationship with me because he feels that if he do it then he doesn't have the possibility to dump me if he changes his mind, basically.
He felt like that toward her. Like if being with her was a pact with the devil or something like that. It's not normal. No one should feel like that toward a relationship especially at the beginning before even starting a relationship in the first place.

Except for the fact that he was so angry that Liz slept with Kyle.

of course it did hurt him. I didn't say that it didn't matter to him, at all.

I personally find her situation worse then Max's. At least Max could see Liz every day, still be her friend, still be around her.

sorry but again it seems to me that you're dismissing Max's feelings with a cheap summary of the events.

as for Liz and Sean it's ok for her to be on rebound with him but Max couldn't do the same apparently. ok
Liz kissed Sean just for sport, she didn't know where she could put her lips.

My view on it is that if other guys in fanfiction have meaningless sex with another woman it doesn't diminish the way that they feel about Liz because it's in their character to sleep around. Not like Max who doesn't view sex as meaningless.

sorry but i still find this logic a bit hypocritical and very double standard.
I don't understand why the same logic can't be valid for Max too (apart from the fact that it's canon for him LOL).
Basically the other guys could do what they want (even if they're in a relationship with her ) but are justified just because they always do it while Max, who was in a bad moment and really believed that Liz didn't love him anymore (so what he did should be more understandable), can't do the same because he's Max
Basically Max kills himself for her but it's not enough. The other guys can sleep around like they want even if they're with her but hey they love her because they say it sometimes.

above all i can't ship Liz with someone that isn't Max
and frankly i find it contradictory that after all the talking about her love for him that his stronger than anything people read and LIKE stories where she loves another man and basically do what Max did in the canon and worse (using your logic)

We see him letting her in, telling her his fears about Alex (something he didn't do with Isabel or Liz)

He surely couldn't go to Liz and tell her that he felt like s*it because he failed to heal her best friend. Same for Isabel.

we see them connecting over old memories, we see that they become a lot closer and he even ends up confiding in her and only her at times during HOM, CYN, OTM, and other episodes.

of course, he had no one.
Max always went to Liz for advices he talked to Tess about his problems only when he couldn't do it with Liz and only because Tess was basically stalking him all the time. It's not a coincidence that in A Roswell xmas Carol, when things between him and Liz were better, he went to Liz and ignored Tess.
It's not that he went to Tess like he always did with Liz.
And Tess never really helped him. Ultimately she always made him feel worse.

anyway what's the point? Now he can't even be friends with Tess? He must be alone?
at least Liz had Maria.

My main point here is that Max had a real or psudeo-romantic relationship with Tess and he let her in to a part of himself that previously only Liz had seen. Which meant that to me him loving Liz in that way wasn't as special as it once was in season one where all he wanted was her, all he saw was her, his greatest dream was to be with her. It was as if those feelings were fleeting here and didn't matter to him during very important parts of the show.

for some reasons this make me remember kindergarten
Just because he cared about other people too it doesn't mean that what he felt for Liz wasn't special or different.

[Sin]

When i said "a miracle" and "high expectations" i was talking about the fact that he didn't know the truth about Liz and he couldn't know the truth about her if Liz herself didn't tell him and didn't want him to know. The only one who could finally end the drama was Liz.

I never blamed Max for not knowing things? So I guess I am lost to what you are saying. That was never a point in which I brought up. The points I was talking about were the times when Max didn't even try to understand Liz in ITBAITL and the resulting episodes were he pretty much treated her like crap until Departure. I don't blame him at all for not knowing things. There is no real blame here (aside from holding him accountable to the actions he did in ITBAITL towards Liz and Isabel).

and my opinion is that you judge him partially for one moment totally forgetting/minimizing everything he had always done for her before and after that moment.

I believe that Max loved Liz. I just don't believe that him loving Liz was as special as it was before since he could feel a similar way for another. Am I saying that Max doesn't love Liz at all? No. Not at all. I am just saying it was no longer as special, as amazing, as earth shattering as it was since he felt feelings that were similar or at least a form of a kind of romantic love for Tess as well. That's my point. He ended up loving her in a way that changed the dynamic of Max's character. He was no longer a one woman man at that point since he let Tess in even at times when he wouldn't let Liz in.

actually the topic was about evil Tess not Max and Liz.
"evil Max vs saint Liz" was the OT that you felt the need to make here too.

This discussion naturally arouse after comments were made about Tess/Mac and Liz. I take full responsibility for my part but I wasn't the only one who participated.

i disagree. Liz has so much a life outside Max that when they were falling in Chant down babylon the flash of her life were about him, her friends and her parents while Max's were only about her.

I hardly think a montage scene is enough evidence to the contrary. All one would have to do is look at the episodes and see which character interacted with which and what storylines they had. Liz actually had more of her own life in the second season then she did any other season largely because she was away from Max she had more story with Whitaker, the skins, Sean, Alex's death mystery, etc. along with her storylines to Max. In season 1 she mostly just does stuff for Max and the podsquad and in season three she is basically just doing whatever Max has time to do. This isn't to say that Max controlled her life. Just an observation that Liz was almost always immersed in all the alien drama.

Again i don't think that he could have proved to love Liz only by not sleeping with Tess especially in that specific moment.

It's not about proving love. It just showed that his love for Liz wasn't that one of a kind if he could have felt the way he did about Tess.

Just because he made a mistake once it doesn't mean that everything he did before and after that moment should be deleted like if it never existed.

I never said it was deleted. I just said it wasn't as rare as it was before.

again even assuming that he valued it so much it doesn't mean that he couldn't still make a mistake
also you said it: he wasn't himself so it didn't matter what the real Max (or at least the more rational one) thought, anyway.
if he wasn't himself then what his real seal previously thought is irrelevant in that moment.

Like I said before I don't really care about the physical aspect of the sex so much as I care about what the sex symbolizes which was pretty much that Max was willing to give himself (all of himself) to Tess at that moment which was and is the main qualm with the Tex. If this was just a meaningless tryst I don't think anyone would have cared. But the way it happened, the way Max acted with Tess afterwards in BIY and the way he treated everyone after wards (especially Liz, like she was some vermin or something) showed that it was much more. They had pretty much established some form of relationship (Max's fear of commitment not withstanding) he trusted her above everyone else (ITBAITL), he loved her (Departure), he wanted her and had feelings for her (OTM, HOM), etc. You keep saying how Sean was the same for Liz but Tess meant WAY more to Max then Sean ever meant to Liz.

sorry but again it seems to me that you're dismissing Max's feelings with a cheap summary of the events.

Did I say anything that was untrue? You say that the two situations can't be compared. I personally find them to be a lot similar then they are different. I am not diminishing what Max felt, I am just saying that Liz didn't have it easy either and she did something different.

as for Liz and Sean it's ok for her to be on rebound with him but Max couldn't do the same apparently.

Everytime you compare the Liz/Sean relationship to the Tess/Max one I just have to laugh because it's like comparing an ant farm to a sphinx. Liz and Sean were going nowhere fast. While Tess/Max basically had a family unit and were on there way to Antar to save their baby. The two really couldn't be anymore different.

Basically the other guys could do what they want (even if they're in a relationship with her )

I never said that they were permitted to cheat on her. I said that it doesn't matter to me if the characters weren't virgins before sleeping with Liz or if they end up sleeping with other women after they have met Liz if it's meaningless sex and if Liz is being written as "the one" for them. If the characters are cheating then it's wrong.

above all i can't ship Liz with someone that isn't Max

I am the same way. I only read stories where Max is with Liz and Liz is with Max or some variation of him.

He surely couldn't go to Liz and tell her that he felt like s*it because he failed to heal her best friend. Same for Isabel.

I don't understand why he couldn't. I actually think it would have prevented what happened with Tess if he talked to Liz or Isabel. I think they would have been very sympathetic and would have tried to help him, but he chose to act like a jerk to both of them and he ended up isolating himself from the two people that could have helped him the most.

It's not that he went to Tess like he always did with Liz.

He turned to Tess all the time during ITBAITL and BIY and in several other episodes that come to mind. OTM, HOM, MITC, etc.

anyway what's the point? Now he can't even be friends with Tess? He must be alone?

The point is that he was replacing Liz with Tess basically. This wasn't just a sex and done thing like every one is insisting it is. There were feelings her that were attached and Max was letting Tess in to apart of himself that he previously only let Liz in on, which is why I say that Max loving Liz wasn't as special as it was because he was doing similar things with Tess.

My main point here is that Max had a real or psudeo-romantic relationship with Tess and he let her in to a part of himself that previously only Liz had seen. Which meant that to me him loving Liz in that way wasn't as special as it once was in season one where all he wanted was her, all he saw was her, his greatest dream was to be with her. It was as if those feelings were fleeting here and didn't matter to him during very important parts of the show.

for some reasons this make me remember kindergarten
Just because he cared about other people too it doesn't mean that what he felt for Liz wasn't special or different.

Kindergarten or not I think it still applies. It's not so much that he cared about Tess, what he had with Tess was more than care. He went to her when things got bad. Not Liz, not Maria, not Isabel, not Michael, not anyone else but her several times. This was something a lot more than physical like you are saying it was.

[Coccy]

I never blamed Max for not knowing things? So I guess I am lost to what you are saying. That was never a point in which I brought up. The points I was talking about were the times when Max didn't even try to understand Liz in ITBAITL and the resulting episodes were he pretty much treated her like crap until Departure. I don't blame him at all for not knowing things. There is no real blame here (aside from holding him accountable to the actions he did in ITBAITL towards Liz and Isabel).

because Liz was trying to understand him(or anyone for the matter) in those episodes (put sarcasm here). Even Maria disagree with her and believed that she was weird/unreasonable. Maria who was her best friend and knew the truth about FMax.
How Max, who was biased toward her because he believed that she didn't love him anymore and considered him responsible, could understand her?
It was the right moment for her to finally tell him the truth instead she chose to not tell him and basically accused him of being responsible of Alex's death.

they were both unreasonable for different reasons

you keep denying that you aren't partial to Liz and you look at Max's pov too but sorry it's not what you concretely do.
It's obvious by your posts and all the examples that you make (always pro Liz) and the way you minimize Max's problems everytime i talk about them while you give a lot of importance to every little thing that Liz had to endure. When i try to explain Max's pov you either minimize it or totally avoid that part of my replies. Your concentration is on Liz only.
I don't have a problem with the ones that are partial if they understand more a character than another (especially when they're not shippers of the couple) but at least don't make it seems that you're neutral and fair to both of them when you obviously aren't to me. It's like making fun of me and my intelligence.
It's just too obvious that you side with Liz, i can even understand it but at least admit it.

I believe that Max loved Liz. I just don't believe that him loving Liz was as special as it was before since he could feel a similar way for another. Am I saying that Max doesn't love Liz at all? No. Not at all. I am just saying it was no longer as special, as amazing, as earth shattering as it was since he felt feelings that were similar or at least a form of a kind of romantic love for Tess as well. That's my point. He ended up loving her in a way that changed the dynamic of Max's character. He was no longer a one woman man at that point since he let Tess in even at times when he wouldn't let Liz in.

Max never shared the same kind of soulmates relationship with another person that wasn't Liz. Unless i watched the wrong show or i imagined certain scenes that M/T (or the other couples, for the matter) never shared.

The show never said that. The contrary. He never said that he felt for Tess the same things he felt for Liz. He never shared with her the same kind of relationship and we saw it. Liz is the one that saved him twice, the only voice he would listen to in Max in the city. Liz wasn't an alien like Tess, she wasn't his supposed wife from the other life yet she had a connection with Max that Tess never had. Tess once said that she could feel it if something happened to Max but in the show Liz is the one who really felt it when he died and she's the one that brought him back from death because she was the one that he really loved and the only person in the world that kept him alive (and not only in that scene) to the point that even after his body became a puddle of dust his soul stayed here and wanted to protect her. When he realized that Clayton wanted to hurt Liz he started to fight for control and told her to kill him/his body so Clayton wouldn't hurt her. Ultimately he DIED for Liz. He could have used the shield for himself too but he didn't.
Max made the biggest sacrifice a person can make for the one he loves (not to mention all the things he did before that) yet you minimize it like if it was nothing compared to him sleeping/caring about Tess when he was in a bad moment and believed that Liz didn't love him anymore. A moment where Tess herself knew that he was in love with Liz and even got flashes of her everytime they were together!
It's an Ad Hominem argument using selective memory. no more no less.

Max gave his soul to Liz, they truly knew each other into a way that goes beyond rationality and human relationships. She saw inside him his inner feelings and his love for her even when he didn't know that she could have loved him too. On the other hand everything Tess saw inside him were the flashes that only further proved to her that he still loved Liz and he would never feel the same toward her too.
Max and Tess were strangers to each other. If he had really know her and viceversa then he would have discovered her true colors way before departure. But obviously Tess didn't let him really know her. Their relationship was based on lies. The ones by Liz and the ones by Tess.
You always avoid this point (no wonder why) but again even Tess herself admitted that he loved Liz and didn't feel the same for her.

Yes, he cared about Tess because from his pov him and Liz were done (because LIZ wanted it) and Tess seemed to love him and she was there for him when he had no one. Not to mention that he felt responsible for her and he felt that he had a duty toward her and a planet (something that changed when he finally discovered her true colors. In that moment he owned her nothing and he only cared about his son). This doesn't deny his feelings for Liz. It's not that he cheated on her. He only gave a chance to Tess when he was sure that Liz really didn't want him anymore. Yet he never stopped to love Liz. This is realistic and totally understandable.
Liz didn't share the same "story" with Sean but even Liz herself was trying to survive.

see i even believe that the fact itself that both Max and Liz got other options is very sane and only made their feelings for each other more real, authentic, believable. How you can know for sure that someone is the love of your life if you only dated that person in your whole life?
Real love is not choosing someone for a lack of other options. Real love is when you have other options too you try them but no matter what or who you always love that one person.
This is something that even Tess herself had to learn although she refused to understand it because she never really loved someone (no i don't think that she loved Max). She tried to hard to get Max for principle, Liz even "helped" her with her bad behavior toward him and in the end she got Max. But she knew that he still loved Liz regardless the circumstances and this made her angry because she couldn't understand why his feelings couldn't change (she even said it). Maybe, maybe, if he had really loved her she wouldn't have mindwarped him making him believe that his son was dying so they were forced to leave the planet. She clearly and desperately wanted to separate him from Liz even if that meant that she had to deliver Max to the enemy who could have killed him. From her pov it was better him dead than with human Liz or pining for human Liz while he was with her.

I hardly think a montage scene is enough evidence to the contrary.

apparently for you nothing is enough evidence. Even him dying for Liz is not evidence. And it's only one example of the things he did for her.

I don't think that Liz didn't have a life outside Max. When she needed to do it she sided with Alex even if that meant putting her friendship with Max aside. I will never agree with who calls her a doormat because she never was.
When Liz didn't agree with Max she always said it. This made her honest because Max knew that when she agreed with him it was what she really thought and she wasn't trying to bribe him with adulatory compliments like Tess always did.
Unlike him she had real friends, she cared about Maria and Alex, she had dreams and a future to care about.

Everytime you compare the Liz/Sean relationship to the Tess/Max one I just have to laugh because it's like comparing an ant farm to a sphinx. Liz and Sean were going nowhere fast. While Tess/Max basically had a family unit and were on there way to Antar to save their baby. The two really couldn't be anymore different.

If we're talking about rebounds It doesn't matter who got pregnant and who didn't. They both were rebounds. If Liz could do that even knowing the truth and even knowing that she loved Max and it was wrong why Max couldn't do the same?
For you Liz used Sean in order to find some peace why Max couldn't do the same thing?
The fact that they're different only makes Max's situation more "legit" because after all he was the one who got "dumped" by Liz since a year and he gave a chance to someone that was forced on him since the beginning and seemed to be his "destiny" and even Liz herself pushed him in Tess arms and told him that she was ok about it!
Did Liz really want him to do that? No. But he couldn't read in her mind and her actions and words created a result.

Liz damaged her relationship with Max and had to face the consequences, this is what happens in the real world when you lie.
It doesn't matter if you think that you're doing the right thing, some actions always have consequences and lies are never a good thing no matter your reasons.
You say that Max changed everything and what made their relationship special collapsed..but you don't realize that Liz changed everything too when she lied to him and made a decision for him without giving him the chance to make his own decisions knowing the truth. She basically manipulated him. This is not a good base for a relationship, Tess or not.
Of course she did what she was forced to do (although she still had a choice) and what she felt that was right. But it wasn't right for their relationship because love or not her lies would always "taint" the relationship. If you really wanted the dreamer relationship back and you wanted the foundation of their love being respected then Liz needed to tell him the truth otherwise you couldn't get that regardless if he slept with Tess or not. Max and Liz always talked about their problems, they were honest with each other, they never lied to each other. When Liz chose to not tell him the truth this inevitably changed their relationship and influenced everything. They could never be the same couple they were in the first season without Liz telling him the truth.


You don't want to see that for you she did nothing and everything was his fault even if he couldn't control something that wasn't created by him. Fine.
It's pointless to still discuss about it because you won't change your mind and i won't change mine.
We already shared our different POVs but right now the discussion is sterile and we keep repeating the same things over and over. Not to mention that it's off topic.

I never said that they were permitted to cheat on her. I said that it doesn't matter to me if the characters weren't virgins before sleeping with Liz or if they end up sleeping with other women after they have met Liz if it's meaningless sex and if Liz is being written as "the one" for them. If the characters are cheating then it's wrong.

Max wasn't a cheater for christ's sake! you realize that it's the same for him too? He was on rebound.
this is lame and double standard.
also aren't those guys ordinary male characters as well? based on your logic, then what's special about them?

I am the same way. I only read stories where Max is with Liz and Liz is with Max or some variation of him.

personally, i can't even read the ones where she's with Zan-dupe or FMax. It figures...
I once tried to read an awakened dreamer fanfiction written by someone like you (with your opinions about Max) and the only result was that i ended up hating that Liz and only found the storyline extremely hypocritical because Liz acted worse than canon Max, in the fanfiction. Where's people's coherence
again, i find it contradictory that people crucify canon Max for Tess and talk so much about Liz being the only one who stayed true to their relationship yet they write or like fanfictions where Liz is worse than canon Max or basically do what Max did in the second season. Generally in those fanfictions Max is a bad guy with her (like she was, from his POV, in the second season) so she's justified if she fall in love with another man. Yet canon Max couldn't even care about Tess like a friend/rebound.

Good for me i never confuse the show with the fanfictions and i still remember the show. They could never influence my opinion about Liz or Max.
above all i never cared about Zan or the dupes in general. He was hot like Max because they shared the same actor LOL but he wasn't Max and he could never be. To me he seemed an idiot just like Rath and Ava (yes she was good but she was a doormat.) But the point is that i didn't care to know him, at all. I don't think that he could substitute Max just because they are twins. A person is something more than a body. I can't see Liz replacing Max with Zan even if they were identical character-vise too. Because she loves Max. It's like saying that if Liz had a clone/twin Max would have loved her in the same way he love the original Liz.

I don't understand why he couldn't.

of course you don't. For someone who claim to ship the heart of the dreamer couple and understand the real Max sometimes it seems to me that you don't get Max and the way he deals with things and how he always felt responsible of everyone. Not at all.

To me Isabel and Liz acted like b*tches toward him too, by the way.
lets say that It wasn't the best moment for a friendly conversation between them all. They were all too unreasonable (max included, of course) and angry for their own reasons.

He turned to Tess all the time during ITBAITL and BIY and in several other episodes that come to mind. OTM, HOM, MITC, etc.

i don't have a problem with it. I don't understand what's wrong about that
then if we want to play lets see:
ITBAITL and BIY : he didn't go to her. She always was the one who went to him and conveniently appeared everytime he was alone and miserable.
off the menù: She went to him at the ufo center and he even reacted coldly toward her when she gave him the gift. I don't think that the scene when Tess said that he still loved Liz and he answered can be considered a time where he went to her for comfort or to confide his feelings. Tess was just there obviously seeing that he still loved Liz by the way he acted toward her and she commented it. At one point he even told Brody to kill him but leave Liz alone.
heart of mine: again another scene where she conveniently appeared at his side when he was sad.
Max in the city: He was angry toward Liz, Isabel and Michael (and they didn't agree/wanted to go with him anyway) so he went at the summit with the only available one, Tess, who was his loyal puppy who only wanted to kiss his arse. Nuff said.
Basically kissing his a$$ was her only purpose in that episode. Apart from her adulating him and him basically being her baby sitter her presence was totally useless. She wasn't able to give him a simple advice about the summit (although it was obvious even to me that it was a trap) and she surely didn't save him when they tried to kill him. (and i'm supposed to buy her convenient " i don't remember what happened" when he later found her "meditating". I'm supposed to buy that Nikolas and the dupes left her alone and didn't kill her or physically hurt her or used her like a hostage in order to get what they wanted from Max&co )
Ultimately human Liz who wasn't with him concretely helped him both when she saved his life (and she was able to do that because like Isabel said Max would listen to her voice) and when she told him to protect the granolith. He didn't know why Liz said that and what made her so sure yet he couldn't stop thinking about it and he ultimately based his choice on what Liz had told him.

I guess that the "etc" are episodes like TEOTW (the ending) and wipe out. stop. The point is always the same. He never went to her like he used to do with Liz and like he did in a roswell xmas carol (that IMO is a good example of what it really means going to someone for comfort) and in the third season. Tess simply was the one who always appeared at his side everytime he felt miserable. She was stalking him and taking advantage of the moments. Something that Liz never did and she didn't need to do. Max always was the one who went to her. Only because Tess was there asking him things he obviously replied to her and talked with her. But he never went to her on his own accord because he needed a friend.
For me it speaks volumes that he not only never went to her on his own but he only used her as a friend when things between him and Liz were bad and he couldn't go to her. Again it's not a coincidence that in a roswell xmas carol he went to her as soon as things between them were semi-good again.

that said, even if Max would go to Tess when he needed an advice or a friend there's nothing wrong about it. He had no one. It would be totally understandable. At least it should. But i get that for you he couldn't do that.
He must be alone and suffer in silence. He can't even answer to Tess' questions.

The point is that he was replacing Liz with Tess basically.

it's called rebound and It's totally realistic that he felt like that because from his pov Liz didn't want him while Tess did.
you like it or not Max was free to start a relationship with Tess if he wanted. Same goes for Liz.

This wasn't just a sex and done thing like every one is insisting it is. There were feelings her that were attached and Max was letting Tess in to apart of himself that he previously only let Liz in on, which is why I say that Max loving Liz wasn't as special as it was because he was doing similar things with Tess.

To be honest i analyzed your posts trying to understand your point.. i'm really trying to understand but some of your phrases are a bit contradictory.
maybe it's me but my impression is that you don't even know what you want to criticize Max for. you keep changing the point and i don't find a coherent link/connection between them because they contradict each other. I try to explain why:
- At beginning you said that the problem is that he slept with Tess. Because he slept with Tess for you he proved that Liz wasn't the one for him like he always said because when someone is the one for you then you don't want to sleep with other people no matter if in that moment he believed that Liz didn't reciprocate his feelings.
So, apparently, based on this the problem for you isn't the fact that he was on rebound with her but only that he slept with her and basically "crossed the line" doing a stupid thing. In fact you justify Liz and Sean that are a rebound too. So it seems that you perfectly understand what a rebound is and you find it believable, reasonable, realistic and understandable no matter if Liz loved Max. At least you understand it when it's about Liz.
- but then you said that sex is not important and it's not the point here. In fact you justify the fanfictions where Liz starts a relationship with guys that are playboys and they sleep around. Just because they sleep with other women it doesn't mean that Liz isn't the one for them
- But then you said that the problem was that Max isn't someone who doesn't value sex yet in the same sentence you also said that he wasn't himself *in that moment* and this contradicts the point because if Max wasn't himself in that moment then all beliefs and opinions that he generally had about things and his life doesn't matter in that moment because.. he wasn't himself. Unless you're saying that he wasn't himself yet he still had the same values. But again this is a big contradiction. If he had the same values then he was himself. If he wasn't himself then he didn't have the same values (and he wasn't himself. It's canon. Even the writers said it)
- Then you changed the point again and you said that the problem is that Max cared about Tess and wanted to start a relationship with her yet in the same post you admit that even Max regretted what had happened between them ( and apparently this is a problem too) and he knew that it was wrong (and this contradicts the idea that he was willing to start a relationship with her because when people really want to start a relationship with someone and they're happy about it they shouldn't feel regret unless it's a one night stand and/or rebound. and That is what happened to Max).

what a mess. I'm exhausted

[Cocogurl]

Wow, I'm gone for a little bit and look what happens! Let's all just back away slowly and no one gets hurt.

Now, Coccy, you made a lot of really good points. Points that I happen to agree with whole heartedly. I'll also admit that in the past, especially after I first watched ITLAITB, I was pretty down on Max myself, thinking there's no way he can make up for this. But after some time, I really looked at both points of views, I really started to understand what was happening. I even see Max sleeping with Tess, as much as I hated it, as just another thing that helped make Max and Liz stronger.

And I think when you're vulnerable and sad like Max, especially after EOTW and CYN, it's easy to be fall into the trap that Tess presented him. I mean, he didn't love her, but she made him FEEL loved and that usually ends up being enough for some people. And when people look at all Max has been through, it's hard not to understand where he's coming from. This a guy who's always felt a freak and a monster, and when Liz--the one woman he loved more than anyone else in the world--gave him that romeo&Juliet speech, basically throwing all of his worst fears back in his face, how do you come out of something like that without being destroyed? If I were Max, I don't think I'd want crawl in bed and not come out for weeks. And then Tess is there and she knows all the right things to say and do, and she knows how to make feel like of freak. So in ITLAITB, when he felt like he had finally lost everything, he grabbed on to that because he thought it was all he had left. So that's something I understand better than I did when I first watched the episode. Love itself is beautiful and perfect, but the people who feel are not. They are flawed and they make mistakes and sometimes say dumb things, but it doesn't make their love any less real. And Max and Tess' relationship was nothing compared to the kind of love that Max and Liz shared.

That being said, I also have to admit that I'm still slightly partial to Liz. This time not because Max slept with Tess, but because he didn't support Liz with Alex--though why the writers didn't just have Liz show Max the evidence, I'll never know why. I mean, it seemed like such an easy solution.

Throughout the series, whenever Max has needed her to do something, she did it. Without question because she had faith in him. And the moment she finally asked something of him, something really big, he wasn't there for her. I mean, I get that he felt responsible for what happened to Alex and Liz should've told them about her theories when she was calmer and more in control, instead of just lashing out at everyone at the funeral for not immediately jumping aboard with her idea. But Max is never as quick to just take things on faith with Liz like she is with him, which is understandable because of the way Max, Michael and Isabel lived with the 'don't trust anyone' motto so deeply ingrained in their brains. I just feel like he should've taken a chance on her, especially when he could see how important it was to her.

But it's my opinion. I have many of them and some of them are crazy so feel free to ignore them.

[Coccy]

Wow, I'm gone for a little bit and look what happens! Let's all just back away slowly and no one gets hurt.

Now, Coccy, you made a lot of really good points. Points that I happen to agree with whole heartedly. I'll also admit that in the past, especially after I first watched ITLAITB, I was pretty down on Max myself, thinking there's no way he can make up for this. But after some time, I really looked at both points of views, I really started to understand what was happening. I even see Max sleeping with Tess, as much as I hated it, as just another thing that helped make Max and Liz stronger.

believe me at the beginning i was like that too. I believe that everyone more or less was a bit shocked
The storyline when Alex died made the character OOC, especially M&L
It thought that it was excessive and the writers basically condemned their own show without realizing it
i never blamed Max but i surely didn't like that storyline and i still don't like his behavior. Honestly i like no one in those episodes. It just didn't seem roswell to me.

I mean, he didn't love her, but she made him FEEL loved and that usually ends up being enough for some people. And when people look at all Max has been through, it's hard not to understand where he's coming from. This a guy who's always felt a freak and a monster, and when Liz--the one woman he loved more than anyone else in the world--gave him that romeo&Juliet speech, basically throwing all of his worst fears back in his face, how do you come out of something like that without being destroyed? If I were Max, I don't think I'd want crawl in bed and not come out for weeks. And then Tess is there and she knows all the right things to say and do, and she knows how to make feel like of freak. So in ITLAITB, when he felt like he had finally lost everything, he grabbed on to that because he thought it was all he had left. So that's something I understand better than I did when I first watched the episode. Love itself is beautiful and perfect, but the people who feel are not. They are flawed and they make mistakes and sometimes say dumb things, but it doesn't make their love any less real. And Max and Tess' relationship was nothing compared to the kind of love that Max and Liz shared.

exactly what i meant. I'm not good like you with summaries thought

That being said, I also have to admit that I'm still slightly partial to Liz. This time not because Max slept with Tess, but because he didn't support Liz with Alex--though why the writers didn't just have Liz show Max the evidence, I'll never know why. I mean, it seemed like such an easy solution.

it was.
I feel that people often whine about "evil Tess" saying that it doesn't make sense blah blah blah (even if she was a secondary character and to be true the writers never developed her so much. Beside, she started as the manipulative b*tch. But apparently for some we were supposed to trust her unconditionally and forget about her past and how she was introduced) yet they don't notice all the other nonsense in the other episodes. The whole premise of TEOTW is DUMB, lame, forced.
and it was pathetically obvious that the writers wrote Liz like that (when she didn't tell Max the truth even after Alex died and it could have made sense) because they wanted Max to be miserable so he could sleep with Tess. It's the only reason. Apart from that Liz didn't need to lie to him, what was done in TEOTW itself wasn't needed.
If Tess is immature and selfish and she can't help their purpose as a group without getting the boy it doesn't make sense to me that they had to give her the boy so she would stay. She was not a kid that they had to please at any cost.
She needed to understand that their real purpose was to be a group. If she didn't care or didn't want to understand then there was nothing they could do about it.
The writers knew that if Max had know the truth nothing of what happened could have happened and they couldn't have gotten "evil Tess" who wanted to get pregnant from Max. Some people don't notice that nonsense and forced storyline either because they don't care about M&L or because they wanted him to be with Tess at any cost no matter if he was with her only because Liz had lied to him, no matter how forced they were, literally. At one moment it seemed that the writers conveniently forgot about FMax. They obviously didn't care about what the fans wanted because they even ruined Kyle/Tess as a possible couple with their sudden "sibling" thing that came from nonewhere and obviously was forced in order to get rid of their build up and make Tess obsessed about Max all over again.

Throughout the series, whenever Max has needed her to do something, she did it. Without question because she had faith in him. And the moment she finally asked something of him, something really big, he wasn't there for her. I mean, I get that he felt responsible for what happened to Alex and Liz should've told them about her theories when she was calmer and more in control, instead of just lashing out at everyone at the funeral for not immediately jumping aboard with her idea. But Max is never as quick to just take things on faith with Liz like she is with him, which is understandable because of the way Max, Michael and Isabel lived with the 'don't trust anyone' motto so deeply ingrained in their brains. I just feel like he should've taken a chance on her, especially when he could see how important it was to her.

When Alex died everything was against the boy (Alex) only Liz believed that an alien killed him. She based her conviction on some clues that she was finding but a part of it was also her being biased because he was her best friend and she would never accept that he committed suicide because that would mean that she didn't realize that something was wrong about him and that he was so depressed that he didn't want to live anymore. She knew Alex and she knew that it wasn't possible. She also knew for sure that in the other timeline Alex didn't die when he was 17. So it made sense for her to believe that something had changed in the new timeline that made him die (reason of why i think that if she had told Max the whole truth then he would've finally understood her not to mention that his perception of her wouldn't be influenced by the fake things he believed about her in that moment because Liz was lying. ). Liz was supposed to change only her future and Max's not Alex's life. If you think about it Liz really changed something outside her and Max: she made Tess stay in roswell.
In the first timeline Tess left roswell and she never killed Alex. Of course Liz couldn't know that.
What you said about Max is true to a degree but at the same time i don't think that he didn't believe in her other times. In Max in the city for example he was angry with her yet he followed her advice about the granolith without knowing why she said that. He just had faith. Above all he always followed her advices. when Alex died is the only time where he didn't take her side.
In that moment it was more a matter of Max being in denial about the whole thing than believing in Liz. Deep down he knew that she was right and he admitted it later when he wasn't angry anymore. His problem was that he knew that she was right but he couldn't accept it.
at the beginning he even supported her and he talked with the sheriff telling him to stop with all the talking about suicide. He changed his mind when Liz lost control and started to make accusations (understandable from her pov. It's terrible when your friends don't believe in you. You don't realize that maybe you should give them something more concrete that can make them understand your point. You take for granted that they can understand. Her best friend died, it was a tragedy for everyone) he also read the report that Jim Valenti gave to him. The sheriff himself believed that Liz was in denial and basically tried to convince Max that she was wrong. It was also the sceriff that told Max to stop Liz before she could damage them and their secret. The truth is that no one believed in Liz.
Even Maria who knew about FMax (so she knew that Alex didn't die in the other timeline) didn't believe in Liz at first. She only did when Liz showed her the evidence

[Sin]

because Liz was trying to understand him(or anyone for the matter) in those episodes (put sarcasm here).

I believe that if Max had opened up to her about his fears, his guilt, etc. all that was bothering him then she would have. But she didn't know that Max felt this way, only Tess knew. Max didn't open himself to anyone else in that episode. He didn't tell Isabel how he felt, neither did he open up to Michael, Maria, Liz or anyone else.

Even Maria disagree with her and believed that she was weird/unreasonable. Maria who was her best friend and knew the truth about FMax.

I think the difference here was that as the episode went on (the arc as well) more people began to back Liz. Micheal, Maria even Isabel were all for at least listening or considering what Liz was saying about an alien killing Alex. It was only Max and Tess who were against even considering the thought and Liz ended up being right in the end of things. It's not as if everyone was always against her here. There were tons of people who were able to give her support or at least believed in going more in depth with her theories, except Max.

you keep denying that you aren't partial to Liz and you look at Max's pov too but sorry it's not what you concretely do.

I don't believe that just because I see things from the way that Max sees them means that I must change my opinion? I get where he is coming from but I don't see why he couldn't have acted differently in those circumstances.

the way you minimize Max's problems everytime i talk about them while you give a lot of importance to every little thing that Liz had to endure. When i try to explain Max's pov you either minimize it or totally avoid that part of my replies.

Again just because I can see where he is coming from doesn't mean that this is going to change my view on the situation. I don't think that's what seeing both sides is. Again for example I can see where a Chinese government is coming from and where a German government is coming from but that doesn't mean that each of their rules are morally right.

I don't have a problem with the ones that are partial if they understand more a character than another (especially when they're not shippers of the couple) but at least don't make it seems that you're neutral and fair to both of them when you obviously aren't to me. It's like making fun of me and my intelligence.
It's just too obvious that you side with Liz, i can even understand it but at least admit it.

To be honest I don't even think it's so much that I side with Liz so much that I side with what was Max and Liz in the previous season. If Liz is a closer personification of that then that may make me more Liz oriented but I personally don't believe that's the case. I think what you are showing or seeing is just that I prefer what was season 1 over the successive seasons of Roswell because those are the real Max and Liz in my opinion.

The show never said that. The contrary. He never said that he felt for Tess the same things he felt for Liz.

I never said that either. I said that he felt a similar kind of romantic love for Tess that he did for Liz. Moreover I think Max may have even loved Tess because she gave him his first born son as well. How could Max truly hate the person who gave him a son in which he loved?

Ultimately he DIED for Liz...Max made the biggest sacrifice a person can make for the one he loves

I feel that Max would have died for any of them. This is not meant as if I am minimizing what he did for Liz in CDB, but I believe that Max would have died for all of them in his group. That's what he did in The White Room so to speak. He was tortured for information and he sacrificed himself to keep the others safe. It's in his character to do these things and yes this aspect of his character could have been reinforced by his love for Liz as he wanted to protect her from harm but, I believe he would have died for Maria, for Tess, for Michael, for Isabel or even for Alex. So I don't believe this is indicative that he only loved her, so to speak as I believe he would have done this for all of them given the situation as that's who Max is. Am I saying it's meaningless? Absolutely not. I just don't think of it as a prime example of his love for Liz even though the gesture is huge. I believe that Max would have done this for them all. Again this doesn't mean it's nothing. I just don't believe it's something exclusive to only Liz.

Which is why I said that Max could sacrifice himself for her but it seems as if he can't love her the same way even when it's hard (EOTW through MITC or ITBAITL through BIY).

You always avoid this point (no wonder why) but again even Tess herself admitted that he loved Liz and didn't feel the same for her.

I know that he didn't love Liz in the same way, I said that he loved Tess in a similar way, he even said himself that he loved Tess, just not the same way in which he loved Liz. It's was obvious that their relationship was more then simple friendship and that Max/Tess were more along the lines of a psudeo-boyfriend/girlfriend thing.

This doesn't deny his feelings for Liz. It's not that he cheated on her. He only gave a chance to Tess when he was sure that Liz really didn't want him anymore. Yet he never stopped to love Liz. This is realistic and totally understandable.

I don't believe that Max stopped loving Liz, I just don't believe he loved Liz in thgat all consuming only her way since he was shown capable of loving Tess in a similar romantic way, perhaps not the same all consuming way but enough to where he was ready to build a relationship with her and where he was sharing himself with her in a way in only did with Liz before hand.

Liz didn't share the same "story" with Sean but even Liz herself was trying to survive.

I still don't believe it's quite the same. Again Liz didn't really care about Sean. He didn't mean anything to her. Did she have fun? Yeah. They went bowling a couple of times but she never really shared herself with him physically or otherwise. He never got close to her and we know that Liz didn't love Sean in anyway. So I don't see it as the same and I think your completely taking things out of context when you compare the two.

see i even believe that the fact itself that both Max and Liz got other options is very sane and only made their feelings for each other more real, authentic, believable. How you can know for sure that someone is the love of your life if you only dated that person in your whole life?

I think it worked in Liz's case. It didn't take anything away from Max and Liz from when they were together. We knew that Sean/Liz were hollow and that they didn't really have anything that compared. That Liz ultimately never felt that way about Sean and was never going to. They weren't feeling similar things that Max and Liz felt. While for the Max/Tess relationship there actually were feelings involved, real things were happening, Max was capable of letting Tess in a way that he wasn't able to before Liz and when the basis of the show is that Max loved Liz and only Liz in that kind of way that did end up taking something away from them.

I will never agree with who calls her a doormat because she never was.

I disagree. I think the fact that Liz did a lot of OOC things in season 3 (busted being the most memorable) proved the contrary. I think the fact that she didn't tell Max how she was feeling in season 3 until Ch-Ch-Changes was her being a step-ford girlfriend. There were lots of things that were problems in season 3 mostly due to their extension from season 2.

Unlike him she had real friends, she cared about Maria and Alex, she had dreams and a future to care about.

I feel all of these things were secondary regarding Max. She dropped all of them to pretty much be with him. That's not blaming him it's just the truth. While Max obviously had more pressing stuff to deal with like finding his origins, Tess, his son, etc.

If we're talking about rebounds It doesn't matter who got pregnant and who didn't. They both were rebounds. If Liz could do that even knowing the truth and even knowing that she loved Max and it was wrong why Max couldn't do the same?

I feel like your completely missing what I am saying. It's not about the rebound at all because Tess was more then just a rebound.

Liz damaged her relationship with Max and had to face the consequences

I don't agree with this. I don't feel as if their relationship was damaged after TEOTW. They were still friends, they still cared about each other, they still loved each other. They were still there for one another. I think the only thing that changed was that they weren't "together" anymore. We saw from tons of scenes that I already listed that they were still on good terms. SO I don't feel as if their relationship was all that damaged as you say it was. It wasn't until ITBAITL that things actually went wrong so to speak.

lies are never a good thing no matter your reasons.

This is a general sweeping statement that I feel isn't realistic. There are some occasions where you have to tell lies.

but you don't realize that Liz changed everything too when she lied to him and made a decision for him without giving him the chance to make his own decisions knowing the truth.

As I stated above I don't really think things changed all that much aside from Liz and Max not being together romantically. There friendship was still intact, they still cared/loved each other, etc. Am I saying Liz was morally right in lying to Max? No. Do I agree with her actions? Yes. Because she had a moral responsibility to save the earth and she wouldn't be Liz if she didn't do what she did. Liz isn't selfish enough to destroy the world for her love. I don't really believe she was given much choice in the matter here. It was either tell Max the truth and end the world or lie to Max and protect him for his own good. Not much of a choice there. Did this hurt Max, the lie? Yes. I don't believe I ever said differently. But I don't believe the aspects of their relationship at it's core form really changed that much. Like I said before it seemed to me to be the same as it was in HW and TB of season 1.

But it wasn't right for their relationship because love or not her lies would always "taint" the relationship.

I guess I still don't agree, because I don't feel it tainted them at all. Otherwise scenes like VLV, ARCC, MITC and other episodes wouldn't exist. They were still them, then. They just couldn't be together.

When Liz chose to not tell him the truth this inevitably changed their relationship and influenced everything. They could never be the same couple they were in the first season without Liz telling him the truth.

I think I went over this in the last two paragraphs above.

You don't want to see that for you she did nothing and everything was his fault even if he couldn't control something that wasn't created by him. Fine.

The thing is that they were past all of that. They had forgiven each other. Those problems from TEOTW were resolved. Did Liz's actions hurt Max then? Yes. But I don't think it really changed the dynamics of their relationship that much when we are able to see how they interacted with one another.

personally, i can't even read the ones where she's with Zan-dupe or FMax. It figures...

I can. I think of them more or less as extensions of Max. To me the idea that at the very core of who Max was he was looking for her, and before then he felt lost and that she is the only one for him is a romantic story. I think that makes them appealing. Ava said that Zan was always looking or waiting for something I feel that something is implied to be Liz. It wouldn't surprise me at all if King Zan was miserable on Antar because he didn't have a Liz to make him happy or connect with so to speak. Future Max is just Max in an alternative future. I actually think FMax may be truest Max.

Yet canon Max couldn't even care about Tess like a friend/rebound.

I disagree again. I think what people saw was that to Max she (Tess) was more than a rebound or a friend.

To me Isabel and Liz acted like b*tches toward him too, by the way.

Yet another thing we disagree on. lol.

ITBAITL and BIY : he didn't go to her. She always was the one who went to him and conveniently appeared everytime he was alone and miserable.
off the menù: She went to him at the ufo center and he even reacted coldly toward her when she gave him the gift. I don't think that the scene when Tess said that he still loved Liz and he answered can be considered a time where he went to her for comfort or to confide his feelings. Tess was just there obviously seeing that he still loved Liz by the way he acted toward her and she commented it. At one point he even told Brody to kill him but leave Liz alone.
heart of mine: again another scene where she conveniently appeared at his side when he was sad.

I feel like this is all semantics. The end result is the same here. He confided in Tess more then he did with anyone else. He let her in (in more ways then one) I think that just proves yet again that Tess meant something to him that was more then just a rebound or a sex playmate.

He had no one.

So I guess Maria, Michael, Alex, Liz and Isabel didn't exist?

- At beginning you said that the problem is that he slept with Tess. Because he slept with Tess for you he proved that Liz wasn't the one for him like he always said because when someone is the one for you then you don't want to sleep with other people no matter if in that moment he believed that Liz didn't reciprocate his feelings.

Like I said before. I wouldn't have cared if Max had sex with Tess if it meant nothing and was just a meaningless tryst. It's that the sex was a symbol of something more and this destroyed what made Max, the ship and the show so great in the first place.

So, apparently, based on this the problem for you isn't the fact that he was on rebound with her but only that he slept with her and basically "crossed the line" doing a stupid thing. In fact you justify Liz and Sean that are a rebound too. So it seems that you perfectly understand what a rebound is and you find it believable, reasonable, realistic and understandable no matter if Liz loved Max. At least you understand it when it's about Liz.

I don't care about Liz and Sean because they didn't mean anything. Where as it was clear that to Max , Tess did mean something to him either at the point he slept with her or later.

- but then you said that sex is not important and it's not the point here. In fact you justify the fanfictions where Liz starts a relationship with guys that are playboys and they sleep around. Just because they sleep with other women it doesn't mean that Liz isn't the one for them

I said sex is only important in reference to how the character feels about sex. If sex is meaningless to the character then it doesn't mean anything. But if it does then it means something. I never said that it was okay for Liz to be in a relationship where people cheat on her.

- But then you said that the problem was that Max isn't someone who doesn't value sex yet in the same sentence you also said that he wasn't himself *in that moment* and this contradicts the point because if Max wasn't himself in that moment then all beliefs and opinions that he generally had about things and his life doesn't matter in that moment because.. he wasn't himself. Unless you're saying that he wasn't himself yet he still had the same values. But again this is a big contradiction. If he had the same values then he was himself. If he wasn't himself then he didn't have the same values (and he wasn't himself. It's canon. Even the writers said it)

My problem with Max sleeping with Tess at that time is that Max (who we perceived Max to be for so long) wouldn't have slept with Tess and he did. I personally don't believe that this is a very Max like thing to do. But he does it. I personally find that to be out of character. But it's canon. So it is something Max did. So Max ended up sleeping with Tess and accoridng to Max's character he doesn't have sex with people he doesn't care about. I don't think Max would do something like that but apparently he did. Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this.

- Then you changed the point again and you said that the problem is that Max cared about Tess and wanted to start a relationship with her yet in the same post you admit that even Max regretted what had happened between them ( and apparently this is a problem too) and he knew that it was wrong (and this contradicts the idea that he was willing to start a relationship with her because when people really want to start a relationship with someone and they're happy about it they shouldn't feel regret unless it's a one night stand and/or rebound. and That is what happened to Max).

I think the thing is that there are many ways to see or interpret what happened. Thus we end up with many views or scenario's of what happened. We could say that Max didn't care about Tess at all and only wanted to sleep with her (#1) or we could say that Max wanted to sleep with Tess and that he wanted to start a relationship with her (#2). I personally don't think that #1 is plausible especially in reaction to all the episodes where he confided in Tess and everything.

Throughout the series, whenever Max has needed her to do something, she did it. Without question because she had faith in him. And the moment she finally asked something of him, something really big, he wasn't there for her. I mean, I get that he felt responsible for what happened to Alex and Liz should've told them about her theories when she was calmer and more in control, instead of just lashing out at everyone at the funeral for not immediately jumping aboard with her idea. But Max is never as quick to just take things on faith with Liz like she is with him, which is understandable because of the way Max, Michael and Isabel lived with the 'don't trust anyone' motto so deeply ingrained in their brains. I just feel like he should've taken a chance on her, especially when he could see how important it was to her.

This was another problem I had a great deal with. I think ITBAITL ruined many things, the romantic portion of the dreamer relationship but it also to me ruined their friendship here as well. Like you said Liz was always there for him when he asked for her help (ARCC, TLAV, etc.) but the one moment when Liz needed Max to be on her side or at least consider the chance that she was right, he completely shuts her down. I mean friendship goes both ways here and it just seemed as if Max was never as willing to help Liz out the one time she needed it most with Alex's death, then Liz was who was basically always there even when all logic protested otherwise (TLAV).

[Cocogurl]

exactly what i meant. I'm not good like you with summaries thought

Thank you. I notice now that I did make some typos. But that's what I get for making big speeches at almost six o' clock in the morning.

I feel that people often whine about "evil Tess" saying that it doesn't make sense blah blah blah (even if she was a secondary character and to be true the writers never developed her so much. Beside, she started as the manipulative b*tch. But apparently for some we were supposed to trust her unconditionally and forget about her past and how she was introduced) yet they don't notice all the other nonsense in the other episodes.

I completely agree. I don't get why everyone was supposed to suddenly trust Tess just because she was one of the aliens and immediately forget how she was trying to mindwarp everyone into letting her into the inner circle. That would make her the LEAST trustworthy person.

What you said about Max is true to a degree but at the same time i don't think that he didn't believe in her other times. In Max in the city for example he was angry with her yet he followed her advice about the granolith without knowing why she said that. He just had faith. Above all he always followed her advices. when Alex died is the only time where he didn't take her side.

Mmm, this is where I have to disagree slightly. You were right about Max In The City. He did have faith in her there, but I don't feel like the Alex thing was the only time he didn't take her side. He didn't listen to her about Ms. Topolsky when she first came to town until HE decided that she could be a threat. And he didn't take Liz's side when Ms. Topolsky came back either. And then in Blood Brothers, Max still insisted that Liz lie to Alex even after they had him break the law for the aliens. So, to me, these were a few times when Max just couldn't find it in him to just believe that maybe Liz was right. And then I look back at all of the crazy things Liz did just because Max asked her to do it, and I just feel like it wasn't as easy for Max to just have faith like Liz did--again, I chalk this up partially to the way Max, Michael and Isabel grew up believing that no one could be trusted. So, it's understandable as well.

And in ITLAITB, while I believe Liz should've showed him the evidence she had because that would've cleared things up, I feel like Max still should've at least tried to have faith in her. Especially since he's come to Liz several times, asking for big things without evidence or proof, but she'd still be there for what ever he needed because it was him. So while I see his side in the final episodes in season 2, I don't fully support them.

I disagree. I think the fact that Liz did a lot of OOC things in season 3 (busted being the most memorable) proved the contrary. I think the fact that she didn't tell Max how she was feeling in season 3 until Ch-Ch-Changes was her being a step-ford girlfriend. There were lots of things that were problems in season 3 mostly due to their extension from season 2.

Now this is something I agree with completely. Liz was definitely a doormat in season 3. And Max was like my least favorite person in the beginning of this season. He took Liz for granted and made it seem like she was the least important person in his life. The only time he really went to her was when he needed help and the only real time he bothered to care what was going on with her was when her life was in danger. Poor Liz was in the relationship by herself for most of the season.

Like I said before. I wouldn't have cared if Max had sex with Tess if it meant nothing and was just a meaningless tryst. It's that the sex was a symbol of something more and this destroyed what made Max, the ship and the show so great in the first place.

Well, you gotta think about this, though. When Max saw Liz and Kyle together, everything he felt towards sex and your first time was probably shattered along with their relationship. Max felt like sex was special because he knew exactly who he wanted to share that first time with. Liz. Once she was gone, I doubt it meant that much to him after that.

And whatever Max and Tess had, was always second best. Just like Sean was second best for Liz. It didn't compare to anything he had with Liz. Not even close. If it did, than Tess wouldn't have caught flashes of Liz whenever she was close to him. He wouldn't have been so weird towards her after having sex with her. Those are not signs of love. He felt weird, regretful, like he woke up and realized what a mistake sleeping with her was. He was even starting to pull away from her again before she announced that she was pregnant. What ever he may have felt, I really feel like the real reason he was staying with her was out of obligation rather than possessing true, romantic feelings for her.

[Sin]

I completely agree. I don't get why everyone was supposed to suddenly trust Tess just because she was one of the aliens and immediately forget how she was trying to mindwarp everyone into letting her into the inner circle. That would make her the LEAST trustworthy person.

Agreed. It kind of shocks me how everyone just lets her in considering that she mind wraped Max and Isabel instead of simply introducing herself and telling them who she was. It's not as if they wouldn't have welcomed her. She came in the wrong way and she was disrespectful even from the start. I think even her power is offensive, I mean you are raping a person of there free will and forcing them to do things against their will. The answer to this question is she was evil. Even if we take away that she killed Alex and except it as an "accident" then we still must consider the fact that she was sending Max, Isabel and Michael to their deaths and they didn't deserve that. I really don't understand why everyone was so gung-ho in trusting her.

Mmm, this is where I have to disagree slightly. You were right about Max In The City.

Max listens to Liz when it doesn't matter basically.

And then I look back at all of the crazy things Liz did just because Max asked her to do it, and I just feel like it wasn't as easy for Max to just have faith like Liz did--again, I chalk this up partially to the way Max, Michael and Isabel grew up believing that no one could be trusted. So, it's understandable as well.

This has always bothered me, and now that you bring it up there were seemingly numerous times that he didn't trust or listen to her. But I can more or less forgive those things because I understand he isn't perfect and he is only human and makes mistakes but I can't just shrug off the Alex situation this time. Just because it's the breaking point for me. If Max was truly Liz's friend here he would have at least CONSIDERED the fact that Alex's death may have been done by an alien. Liz deserved that much in the VERY LEAST after all she did and continued to do for him and their group. She deserved to be listened to and Max owed that to her after everything. Max should have been more sympathetic here, he should have realized that Liz had just lost one of her best friends that she knew since 5th grade and Max should have supported her in this. I understand that he was hurt or angry at Liz for what she said to him in CYN but I feel as if they were stronger then that. That he was stronger then that. And he wasn't. And I don't think I can forgive that. I think it destroyed another aspect of their relationship.

And in ITLAITB, while I believe Liz should've showed him the evidence she had because that would've cleared things up, I feel like Max still should've at least tried to have faith in her.Especially since he's come to Liz several times, asking for big things with evidence or proof, but she'd still be there for what ever he needed because it was him. So while I see his side in the final episodes in season 2, I don't fully support them.

Completely agree. Exactly. Head. on. the. nail.

Now this is something I agree with completely. Liz was definitely a doormat in season 3. And Max was like my least favorite person in the beginning of this season.

That's exactly how I felt. I was just angry the entire time I watched episodes of the third season just because it seemed as if they glossed over everything and it made me resent the writers each episode because we never got a scene that really dealt with all of their issues. The fact that Liz seemed to have no problem at all excepting everything just made things worse. She was a pod. She wasn't even Liz. Liz is the kind of person who makes lists out. Is the kind of person who plans everything. She would never do the things that she did in Busted. She completely changes into a person who isn't even her for Max.

Max is even more a lost cause it seems. It's like he doesn't even care. Like he doesn't want to lose Liz so he isn't even going to speak about their problems. There are so many episodes that I have a problem with. Control, Busted, Samuel Rising, etc. It's just unbelievable and it just seems selfish. I understand that Max's son was a priority. It's just. It's a horrible storyline and it makes the entire thing unlikable. The Tex sex ruined the show. That's pretty much the short of it. That baby, Tess it destroyed the show and I'm just going to leave it at that.

He took Liz for granted and made it seem like she was the least important person in his life. The only time he really went to her was when he needed help and the only real time he bothered to care what was going on with her was when her life was in danger. Poor Liz was in the relationship by herself for most of the season.

Completely agree. It's like the dreamers were the whipping boys for the writers. I don't get why they would want to hurt the fans this much. It's just heartless really. Katims sucks.

I doubt it meant that much to him after that.

I don't so much agree with this. Again what was stopping him from having meaningless sex after he saw Kyle and Liz then? Relatively nothing. I think the fact that he had a relationship with Tess (more or less) before the sex and them him sleeping with her meant that he wanted more from Tess in that moment and afterward. I think in the end of it all I feel about it this way there are so many reasons why sleeping with Tess was wrong. The problem is really layered and multifaceted. It harmed who Max was at his core person. It wasn't within his character to do such a thing and the way he was written showed that this was very much against who he was. Max was never careless about sex. Ultimately if the fans react to something that is written with the vehemence that we did and all of us feel as if it's something he wouldn't do then the writers failed as writers because they aren't writing characters in character. To be honest beyond this point it seemed as if Max wasn't even Max anymore. He was diminished.

And whatever Max and Tess had, was always second best. Just like Sean was second best for Liz. It didn't compare to anything he had with Liz. Not even close.

This is true. I guess that's a constellation. But I still think it takes away from what Max and Liz were. That Max that was a one woman man, that Max who only had room in his heart for Liz, that Max that only saw her, I mean he is gone forever. And at that point where do they go from here? The very thing that made the ship so special, so amazing, so transcendent is gone and they are reduced to being the average couple (at least from where I can see). I mean they aren't monogamous with their hearts or other wise, everything seems spoiled and things are soiled. I guess the answer is just to accept it and move on.

What ever he may have felt, I really feel like the real reason he was staying with her was out of obligation rather than possessing true, romantic feelings for her.

Another thing that really bothered me was how Tess was ALWAYS apart of their relationship after that. It was like she was always pulling Max away from Liz in some way with the baby. It was never just them anymore and that's another problem it seemed. Max was never really all hers again because of what he did with Tess. Max would always share something in common with Tess that Liz could never be apart of. Tess was pulling Max away from Liz all through out season three and it just cemented the fact that Max wasn't really hears (what the writers wanted us to believe). Max would always be pulled away from her through antar, Tess's baby or Tess it seemed. What a kick in the teeth.