Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

[somewhere87]

Hated:
How Maria became a doormat in s 2 and how they effed up MM in some ways; Michael kisses Courtney, they just swept that under the rug...like Maria had no right feeling hurt, and Liz bas. tells her to get ovet it You would think Liz would tell Maria if Michael would have kissed her..
.in MItC, Michael is again rude towards Maria...one episode later they act like a couple. So many unanswerd questions

Irretating:
People posting alien abyssfic in the CC thread

[hauntedd]

Ok...this goes with MANY fandoms not just Roswell

But people who are so diehard into the show they can't look past it when someone does a story thats UC or off the line in what happened on the show.

Such as if someone does a say a UC Polar story where Max is just this complete bastard who beats Liz through the whole story and Michael swoops in and saves her...this person will leave screaming feedback about how the story sucks and Max would NEVER do that to Liz due to the fact he loves her and their soulmantes

They only see the characters in this small tight box that the tv writers put them in and can't stand it when someone might let them out and show them under another light.

I agree and disagree. I love to step outside the box, as anyone who knows me can attest. But, the example you give about a Polar story were Max is abusive of Liz - no. Because Max would never abuse Liz (at least not overtly or intentionally). If I want to read something like that, I'll go read original fiction.

I like to see the characters in different scenarios, like in well-written and believable UC fics, but not at the expense of the qualities that made me fall in love with the characters in the first place. I still want Max to be Max, and Liz to be Liz, etc. Otherwise it ceases to be Roswell, imo.

Well, I think if you make a case for Max being abusive after late S2 or in S3, it can work, especially seeing the way that he acted. Max manhandled Liz while she was waiting for a taxi to go to the airport, threatened her with their friendship etc. In season 3 it wasn't much better -- he said he was committed to her/their relationship, but put her into situations that were pretty shitty (having the gunshot victim hold a gun -- stay classy Max Evans), and he was ready to leave the planet without saying goodbye. Not to mention the crap he pulled with Kal and the way he tended to treat Michael.

I'm not saying that's the best/only way to write a Polar fic, far from it -- there's a lot of material in the show that polars can and do work from as a starting point, but there is definitely quality fic, like Peachykin's Interstate, that highlights the darker sides of Max's personality, including his controlling nature. I'm sure that there's quality CC fic that does the same, but I'm a UCer

[Coccy]

double standard.

you realize that using these lame examples then all roswell characters could be considered abusive and "rapers"?




it seems to me that we use the word 'abusive' a bit too easily

dictionary:
a·bu·sive (-bysv, -zv)
adj.
1. Characterized by improper or wrongful use: abusive utilization of public funds.
2. Using or containing insulting or coarse language: finally reprimanded the abusive colleague. --- when Max did it?
3. Causing physical injury to another: abusive punishment. --- Max never physically hurt Liz. He would DIE for her. actually he really died for her.
4. Relating to or practicing sexual abuse. --- Max? the same guy who awaited for so long before telling her that he was in love with her? the same guy who kissed her after 10 years? i also may remind you that Liz did lose her virginity when she was a married happy woman. and it's not that before it Max had to force her into kissing him or make out with him. actually, sometimes, it seemed that she was the one with the phrase "Max lets do it now!" on her forehead.
he always respected her and NEVER forced her to do things she didn't want.

Well, I think if you make a case for Max being abusive after late S2 or in S3, it can work, especially seeing the way that he acted. Max manhandled Liz while she was waiting for a taxi to go to the airport

i don't remember that he did hurt her or something. he grabbed her arm twice but when she made him notice it he stopped
this is something that many people do when they're angry.
this doesn't mean that just because you grab an arm twice in 3 years you will rape the woman or beat her

anyway into those episodes he wasn't even himself
even the writers said that Max wasn't really himself and he was influenced by his alien side.
still it's not that he physically hurt someone (like Michael when he was the king in the third season. )

threatened her with their friendship etc.

it's called ultimatum not "threat"
like what Alex did in the first season when Liz didn't want to tell him the truth about Max.
like what Liz herself did when she told Max that then they couldn't be a group if he didn't accept her theory about Alex's death.

but Liz was free to do what she wanted and she always did.

threat (thrt)
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment. -- It doesn't seem to me that Max ever did it against Liz
2. An indication of impending danger or harm. - ditto
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace. -- ditto

maybe for you the phrase "if you go we're not friends" means "if you go i will kill you!"

In season 3 it wasn't much better -- he said he was committed to her/their relationship, but put her into situations that were pretty shitty (having the gunshot victim hold a gun -- stay classy Max Evans), and he was ready to leave the planet without saying goodbye. Not to mention the crap he pulled with Kal and the way he tended to treat Michael.

firstly Liz was the one who wanted to help him and made most of the decisions about what happened in busted. we're not in the middle age where women couldn't think. you really have a good opinion of Liz.
it's not that he forced her to do it. he never did.
actually he didn't want her to be a part of the plan at the beginning but Liz was the one who insisted.

lets see the "abusive" Max in action

Max: Are you ready?
Liz: Yeah, I think so.
Max: Liz, you don't have to do this.
Liz: No, Max. We are in this together. That's what we said. Together till the end.

Liz: No, no, no, no, no. I want to do this with you, max. Together.
Max: Why?
Liz: Because if i had lost a child, I would want you to help me find him. But that's only part of the reason. The other part is that i don't want you to slip away from me. I know what it's like to be with you, and I know what it's like to be apart from you. And I would rather be with you.
Max: I don't know if i could live with myself if anything ever happened to you.
Liz: Max, you're an alien king. What could ever happen to me?

Max opens Liz cell

Max: I wish we could trade places.
Liz: No. No, no, no, max. Ok, I don't. You're free. We came here for a reason because your son is in trouble. Now you need to go back and do what we came for. You know, see if your ship works. Come on. I don't want this to all be for nothing.

God he's so evillll!

This is not being abusive to me.
now, Liz is neither stupid nor a doll without brain. she's responsible of her actions and decisions just like Max. she's not a baby. thanks.
Two people are involved into a relationship and they work together in order to do something. they did it together, because this is what couples do. this is what they ALWAYS did.

after what happened Liz still wanted to help him when he went to Kal but that time Max even said no because he didn't want to put her in danger. so he got the lesson. even if, again, he didn't force Liz in busted. they were together and did it together. and faced the consequences together.


as for Kal.
Kal wasn't innocent baby who Max used for his own agenda. he wasn't a poor victim. Max asked him to do what Kal was supposed to do. his role. and Max wasn't the only one with a written role and duties in the story, you know
Kal, if you forget it, was a killer who threatened him (now we can really use the word) from the beginning. actually it was his fault if M&L got busted in "busted"
because Kal didn't want to go home so he didn't care if an innocent baby was in danger.
actually Max didn't even know who Kal was when he started to act as an enemy. Max found Kal because Kal started a war against him.

Max firstly asked Kal's help even if the alien did what he had done. then Max used the trick when he had no choice.
not justifiable . but Max needed to save a baby in danger. that's what every father would do.


still in the end no matter what kal did to him or tried to do, Max took care of him and he apologized and understood his mistake.
something that most of the character of roswell never did.

with the examples you provided we can say that Max wasn't an angel. we can say that he did mistakes that he could have avoided. that he isn't perfect, like everyone. That even Max was angry sometimes and he showed it. That Max wasn't always 'good' and sensible no matter what. that Max can be stupid and make stupid things. that Max was "normal" like all of us. but we can't say that he's abusive
Max is not an angel but his personality (made with 3 years of show not just two lame examples happened when he was into a certain moment of his life) is sweet, gentle, protective. he's sensible. he can apologize even when he doesn't have to do it. He's the one who saves people not abuse them.





also....
the way he tended to treat Michael?
if you're talking about the episode where Michael was the king then you obviously didn't watch it. the real abusive one there was Michael.
anyway, if Max is automatically abusive just for these lame examples then Michael was too
he acted the way Max acted into those scenes even more times than him. and it's not that Isabel is innocent either.
but i don't think that Michael was abusive either.

but we should apply the same judgment on every character not just one

Max's personality, including his controlling nature.

controlling is a thing
being abusive and a raper is another.
both Max and Liz were controlling people but they never physically hurt each other
Max protected her with his life. He even DIED for her.
every scene in roswell showed the way he always protected her with his body everytime there was something possibly dangerous in the room.
when she was sick he even wanted to contact the same people who tortured him like an animal in order to have answers and to help her.

[Cocogurl]

I agree with you, Coccy. I think we use the term abusive too loosely. Now if every bad thing Max ever did is considered abusive, then every character in Roswell was abusive too because they've all screwed up and even treated others badly. Like, the way Max treated everyone in season 3 and at the end of season 2, I call that being insensitive and even a little selfish, but I could never call it abusive. Now the way Michael treated everyone when he became when he was king was more abusive then Max ever was in his worst moments. And talking about abusive, the way Tess mindwarped her friends and Alex, and Max, not THAT was really abusive. She violated their minds for crying out loud.


Now I think more of Max' decisions were more selfish than some of Liz's decisions, but I'd hardly call him abusive. Max is too great of a guy to ever ACTUALLY be abusive to someone. Now the only thing Max ever did that he even came close to being abusive was when he threatened Isabel. That's when I thought he was going too far, but even then, I know that Max would never actually hurt his sister.

[girl afraid]

Irretating:
People posting alien abyssfic in the CC thread

Oh yeah.

I'm sick of Liz being Canon-sued too.

[Coccy]

lets be honest polar ff and UC Liz fanfictions make Max evil 90% of the time not because he really was in the show (like i said using these lame examples than all the characters could be considered abusive. even myself right now for the matter lets not be ridicule) but because he wasn't
the real Max, the one that the real Liz loved was an amazing man who did mistakes like everyone but who DIED for her and loved her like no other man can love a woman and she loved him in the same way.

people know that if you follow canon then Liz would never choose another man over the real Max because she loved him and did everything for him and it's not that she never got any occasions in order to move on. but she couldn't because she loved him and she was unhappy without him. she even said it in one of the scenes i posted.
so the only way people have in order to not only put Liz with another guy but make her character look like a "saint" and not a cheater and a whore is to justify the betrayal by making Max evil. no more no less. don't create excuses. this is the core simple reason of why Max is evil in most of UC Liz ff.
by making Max the enemy Michael and Liz are justified to be together not to mention that most of the time this kind of ff is real bashing propaganda in order to change people's opinion about characters that were good in the canon. If you want to convert dreamers into polarism you have to change their opinion about Max because for many after all he had done for her he's the dream man and an amazing boyfriend and no one can compete with that kind of love.
so basically you have to destroy the Max the real Liz loved (and dreamers loved and normal roswell fans didn't hate) in order to put her with someone else and justify her change of heart after 3 years of roswell where she did everything for him and loved him like crazy (and if we follow the books then she should leave her children too). otherwise the new couple can't make sense (not that for me polar makes sense ) and they have no reason to be created (not to mention that Michael and Liz are the fanom version of Max and Tess. they're even worse because it would be a double betrayal not only against Max and Maria but for the deep friendships between Liz&Maria and Max&Michael. so no wonder why people need to make Max evil.) and even like that it's still totally OOC
i also find contradictory and very hypocritical that people can consider Max abusive BUT then want to put her with someone like Michael, Kivar, Spike, Alec, *put a random rebel guy without canon shipper here* *put ever character played by Jensen because he's hot for fangirls* etc etc
you should put her with Alex, and even Alex had his dark side. you should put her with a doll because no one can be an "angel" even the sweetest guy ever.


no offense. if i can sound rude it's because it seems that we CC fans are delusional and biased here not to mention that we are not "open minded" just because we love what really happened in the show and not something that is only into our fantasy

you can love what you want but don't try justify fanon using canon trying to make it seems that UC and OOC is canon when it never was.
people are not stupid nor blind. thanks.

[hauntedd]

lets be honest polar ff and UC Liz fanfictions make Max evil 90% of the time not because he really was in the show (like i said using these lame examples than all the characters could be considered abusive. even myself right now for the matter lets not be ridicule) but because he wasn't
the real Max, the one that the real Liz loved was an amazing man who did mistakes like everyone but who DIED for her and loved her like no other man can love a woman and she loved him in the same way.

Have you actually read any UC fiction? I doubt it. Until you actually have read UC fic, you may want to stop criticizing all that you don't know -- it just makes you sound ignorant.

And that may be what you take out of the show (Max loving Liz and that he was an amazing man), but I may get something entirely different out of it. That's the beauty of differing opinions, but you're most certainly not going to convince me of anything by acting like a crazed fan. Roswell ended in 2002, most shipper wars have been over for years since then.

people know that if you follow canon then Liz would never choose another man over the real Max because she loved him and did everything for him and it's not that she never got any occasions in order to move on. but she couldn't because she loved him and she was unhappy without him. she even said it in one of the scenes i posted.

Why are you generalizing? I have read several stories that end differently that follow the entirety of canon. Just because you believe that Liz wouldn't end up with another man doesn't mean that I believe it. Again -- beauty of different opinions.

so the only way people have in order to not only put Liz with another guy but make her character look like a "saint" and not a cheater and a whore is to justify the betrayal by making Max evil. no more no less. don't create excuses. this is the core simple reason of why Max is evil in most of UC Liz ff.

Says who? You? And they're not so much excuses as different perspectives. But, why repeat myself when you're not going to see things my way and I am most certainly not going to see things your way.

by making Max the enemy Michael and Liz are justified to be together not to mention that most of the time this kind of ff is real bashing propaganda in order to change people's opinion about characters that were good in the canon. If you want to convert dreamers into polarism you have to change their opinion about Max because for many after all he had done for her he's the dream man and an amazing boyfriend and no one can compete with that kind of love.

Um, I know that you quoted me webster's dictionary previously (which, thank you for that, but I passed third grade English with flying colors, though I doubt you can say the same about debate 101), but you may want to check the definition of propaganda, since I really doubt the intent of any fanfiction is to harm anyone. Just saying.

I really doubt that any UCers have grand plans of mass conversion -- it's great when it happens, and I'm not discounting that b/c I have definitely had a few of my own friends (who are polarists) see the appeal of ships that I like through stuff I've said/written. For the most part all writers are writing to those who already like a ship that they like or have been challenged to write. So if you don't like it, don't read it. Why do you feel the need to get so worked up about fanfiction.

no offense. if i can sound rude it's because it seems that we CC fans are delusional and biased here not to mention that we are not "open minded" just because we love what really happened in the show and not something that is only into our fantasy

Uhm. No. You're rude because you're rude. A+ for trying so hard to justify it, though.

[ladygloria]

Oh what an interesting thread.

Things that make me want to bang my head against anything. Fandom only? Well, let's see, I'll go with the short list.

1. The fact that people are so die-hard and emotional over fanfiction and individual choices within fanfiction. Everyone sees life differently. I'm not one who will say that we all should sit around campfires and sing hippie songs, but if we could all agree to disagree respectfully then that would be wonderful.
2. Stories written or designed to appeal to romantic delusionists (and no, this isn't a slam against any pairing). I really could care less who ends up with who, but I have never seen so many people believe that everything is black and white, that only one pairing can be "the pairing", and that all couplings must be happily ever after and that any author who disagrees must be hung and quartered. I guess that's why I read so little fanfiction, because it pains me to see so many authors who follow to that line of thinking. Then again, I was one of the rare folks who watched an episode of Roswell because of the sci-fi angle so I guess I'm in the minority there.
3. Good stories of any pairing, CC and UC, whose authors write well-paced, well-written, and truly thought-out storylines receive so little feedback while people who barely write a grammatically correct sentence get highly praised feedback no matter how ridiculous the story angle.
4. The writer's take on just about everything in S2 and S3. Good lord people, get real. Jellyfish queens and characters gone amuck. It was like anything they did right was utterly ruined by the time it was all over. I think that's why so many people are still here. It will take many more years to fix anything that came out of those two seasons (and S1 was far from perfect too). Really, makes you wonder how so many folks enjoyed the show enough to try and save it, doesn't it?

[Coccy]

Have you actually read any UC fiction? I doubt it. Until you actually have read UC fic, you may want to stop criticizing all that you don't know -- it just makes you sound ignorant.

actually i did it i also read a lot about other people's opinions and if so many people criticize UCLiz ff because of the Max's bashing (the current discussion started here was about it no? ) there must be a reason
or maybe they're all visionary.

so lets say that i tried to understand UC before talking.
otherwise i wouldn't say certain things
if my memory isn't wrong it seems to me that polars even created a specific "Genre" for fanfictions with Max's bashing because they're like the 90% of their fanfictions. even into this board someone on another thread admitted that on polar attraction the awards for the best Max are mostly for ff where he's abusive and a raper because he's written like that most of the time. so it's not that i create things.

above all you're the one who admitted it too and tried to make it seems that Max is like that in the canon too.
the current discussion started about abusive Max in UC fanfictions, not another thing. and i simply replied to the example that you and the other user did.
it's not me the one who made the specific example of UC ff that people don't like because they can't see outside the box and they can't accept characters written under different light

i missed something here

And that may be what you take out of the show (Max loving Liz and that he was an amazing man), but I may get something entirely different out of it. That's the beauty of differing opinions, but you're most certainly not going to convince me of anything by acting like a crazed fan. Roswell ended in 2002, most shipper wars have been over for years since then.

you're the one (along the other user) here who criticized CC fans (or dreamers) saying that we can't see outside the Box (= we're not open minded like you uc fans are )
i'm just replying. also this is the board/section about the show and i talk about the show.

i don't understand why when it's about UC fans you have different respectable opinions while we CC fans are... what did you say? lets quote "I also don't get why everyone is still so hardcore about ships this many years out" and we can't see outside the box
it seems that CC fans can't have their opinions. they're too old. now the trend is to like OOC and UC at any cost and CC fans have to justify their self

even in the unpopular opinions thread killjoy (i'm talking with him/her too) started with a reply where she/he wrote "i don't understand why Max&Liz have so many fans. i really don't understand it. i don't understand it. i don't understand it. My God i don't understand it" (<----i made a summary. the post was longer.)
it seems that the threads about what we don't like in the original show always end up with discussions about "i don't like that most of the people like this or this and they don't like this" =criticize the fans for what they love

Why are you generalizing? I have read several stories that end differently that follow the entirety of canon. Just because you believe that Liz wouldn't end up with another man doesn't mean that I believe it. Again -- beauty of different opinions.

it's not just "me". it's the canon show and what both Melinda and the television series writers said. it's what happened. or maybe i dreamed the end of the show were Liz was married and happy with Max. maybe you have more episodes after it where Liz went to another man but it seems to me that the story was closed there therefore Liz REALLY ended up with Max and not another man. did i dream it? lol

we're talking about fictional characters here not real people. and Liz is only the character that the writers (who created her) wrote not ff authors with their biased POV and dreams about a story that never existed and not only didn't exist but the original creators created no clues about different paths for the future because they made the core points very clear and they gave a closure to the show.


so when you change Liz too much compared to what who created her wanted her to be it isn't neither just an interpretation nor a simply different opinion. It's revisionism according to what people wanted to happen/her to feel but never did in the real story. otherwise if the original creators wanted it to happen you would have seen it without any problem.
believe me if Romeo wanted to be into a romantic relantionship with Mercutio or a andom girl named Matilda he met in mantova then Shakespeare would have written it instead or making him die in the end.

i may be biased for you but what i like is what the writers wrote not just my fantasy.
a story ends when the author writes "end"
then fanfictions are fun. but ff authors don't use a disclaimer ('roswell is not mine etc etc') at the beginning of their ff just because it's pretty.


i'm not saying that you can't have your opinion. what i'm replying to, the core discussion, is another thing
i'm just saying that some things are canon like them or not while other things are only fanom and they aren't created by who made the characters, in the first place. so it's not that people 'can't see outside the box' because they're biased or obsessed about something that didn't even exist. they just want the characters be faithful to what the original creators said. for you it's different. no problem
but if you want people to respect your opinion then don't start to criticize people's way to see fanfictions.

Says who? You? And they're not so much excuses as different perspectives. But, why repeat myself when you're not going to see things my way and I am most certainly not going to see things your way.

Um, I know that you quoted me webster's dictionary previously (which, thank you for that, but I passed third grade English with flying colors, though I doubt you can say the same about debate 101), but you may want to check the definition of propaganda, since I really doubt the intent of any fanfiction is to harm anyone. Just saying.

well, i'm not english and i'm not presumptuous enough to use words without knowing the real meaning.
if the meaning of abusive is that one it isn't my fault. i didn't create the meaning.
you said that Max was abusive in the canon too and i replied using the meaning of the word. no more no less.
if your english is so great good for you! but if your english is great while mine isn't than you should use the words more correctly than me (that i need a dictionary sometimes) and i wouldn't need to post the dictionary definitions

anyway...
propaganda

prop·a·gan·da (prp-gnd)
n.
1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.
3. Propaganda Roman Catholic Church A division of the Roman Curia that has authority in the matter of preaching the gospel, of establishing the Church in non-Christian countries, and of administering Church missions in territories where there is no properly organized hierarchy.

it seems to me that i used the correct word. propaganda isn't just something made in order to harm people. my friends always tease me saying that with all the talk about this show i make a "propaganda" in order to make them want to watch it too

I really doubt that any UCers have grand plans of mass conversion

so why a certain group of UC fans had a "tutorial" especially made for dreamers and candies that weren't sure about that certain UC couple?
why on their site they 'beg' dreamers and candies to give a chance before closing the page?
and why on another board someone tried to convert me into that fandom by sending me links of ff even if i said that i was interested only in CC fics?
above all i don't understand why UC fans care so much about CC fans and if they're "stuck" with what they like or not.

again i'm not the one who started this discussion about what CC fans like or not and why

-- it's great when it happens, and I'm not discounting that b/c I have definitely had a few of my own friends (who are polarists) see the appeal of ships that I like through stuff I've said/written. For the most part all writers are writing to those who already like a ship that they like or have been challenged to write. So if you don't like it, don't read it. Why do you feel the need to get so worked up about fanfiction.

ehm... hello, i'm not the one here who started to talk about fanfictions, in the first place. read the replies. i'm replying to you and the other one.
you're the one who started the OT about fanfictions.i just replied talking about the canon show since this thread is in the roswell general discussion board not the fanfiction discussion board.

Uhm. No. You're rude because you're rude. A+ for trying so hard to justify it, though

thank you
i guess that this kind of thread "teach" me very well then.

[nibbles2]

never mind