Roswell Fanatics

maxandliz4ever1357 wrote:

true. but it makes me wish that instead of turning to Tess, he would have turned to drink. At least then there wouldn't be a kid involved who could be messed up emotionally because of it. Drink might be worse in the long run, but all it would take is one sip to be entirely wasted, and that's far better than sleeping with Tess.

I think your looking at the whole thing through I-Hate-Tess colored glasses. I get your point, and I do think that sleeping with Tess left a deep scar in their relationship. The thing is, so did all of Liz's behavior, even though all of her actions were understandable.

I know. And they aren't I-Hate-Tess colored glasses ALL the time. When she was connecting with the Valentis, I thought she was okay. But than her and Max slept together (I admit, due to Liz's interference) and well, it almost ruined the Dreamers for me. When we discovered Tess killed Alex, that was the last nail in the coffin. So Post-Prom, I just really had issues with the show. I know it looks a lot like I'm a complete Tess-Hater, and usually I am, but sometimes, I'm okay with her...like in fanfictions. Than, hey, anything goes.

HI I don't post often but this has been a raging debate between me and my sister.

I think Liz loved Max more. He not only got another girl pregnant but after all the truth came out in Season 3 he was willing to leave earth on the space ship ignoring Liz's phone call. Everything Liz did was for the good of the Aliens not once did she do anything selfish. When she left him at the end of first season it was because they had just seen his mother for the first time and she had basically told him to start boinking Tess (yak...spit ...gag). He told her to leave him in Season two in the form of fututre Max. Following that present Max treated extremely badly.

Also I would like to point out that they had become friends even though she had slept with Kyle, only after seeing him kiss Tess at prom did she herself decide to move on even if it wasn't whole heartedly. (side note totally feel sorry for sean such a rebound guy). Alex's death and Liz's subsequent investigation was the catalyst for sleeping with Tess. Max may have felt a pull towards Tess but wasn't until Liz made it clear that no matter how much she loved him she wouldn't just agree with him about Alex's death, did MAx and Tess do anything. I thought Max actions were unforgivable both towards Liz and Tess (prior to us finding out that she was the bad one even though I already hated her with a fiery passion). Just because he wasn't getting his way he decided to hurt EVERYBODY!! Think Isabelle with the college thing Michael and maria's already tentative relationship, and Liz as much as possible. Most of all he hurt himself. He acted like a spoiled brat.

Now before you Lynch me know that I am a DREAMER!! I love Max and I think he loved Liz a lot, but in the tradtion of male/female relationships (especially teenage ones) Liz was more mature and understood the words compromise and sacrifice. At the end when he gave up his baby I think Max had come full circle and now understood what it means to be in a real adult relationship. Before that he was your typical (and I do mean typical at times I found the aliens to be more human than the humans) teenage horndog.

I am nothing if not pragmatic. And I never lynch, lol, but I do debate.

Max never asked Liz to leave him in the first place. He begged her to stay. Liz is the one that made that decision. She and Max heard the message at the same time, and she decided that she knew best how he had to fulfill his destiny, and who he had to fulfill that destiny with. As far as she was concerned, Max had no say in their breakup. I actually think she loved him less, because she didn't have enough faith in him or in their love to try and make things work, to figure them out. She ran, instead. I've been in this position, where it's all noble. That's crap, because it places no trust in the other person. And no matter how noble the reason is, the relationship is never the same after that. Speaking from my own experience.

When someone ends a relationship, from that moment on, they have no say in who the other person dates/has relations with/marries. They gave up that right when they walked away. When Max took his step back, he went to Liz after he saw her with Kyle to tell her it was okay if she wanted to date her old boyfriend. Liz said something very interesting. She told Max that she didn't need his permission. She was right. Actually, if she wanted to date with the entire male contingent of the US Olympic Swim Team (I love them - all broad shoulders, narrow waists, big hands, lol), it would be none of his business. Anything that happened between Max and Tess, after she walked away from him, was none of her business either. That's the downside of breakups.

Max moved on when Liz gave him the final "I've been in pain for a whole year, suffocating (because of you), maybe it would be better if we just realized it was over" speech. Then, the very next thing he sees is Liz dancing with Maria, looking like the weight of the world is finally off her shoulders, now that she got rid of the millstone that was around her neck. *This* was the moment when he gave up hope of ever getting back together with Liz, almost a whole year after she left him. He lasted a lot longer than I ever would have, with absolutely no encouragement from her at all.

Was Max horrible? Yeah, yeah. So were the rest of them. Liz was a lousy friend after Max got out of the white room. Not girlfriend; friend. She knew, she knew what he had been through, because she'd seen it in flashes. Did she contact him once all summer? You know, just to check up on him as a friend and see how he was doing? Max wasn't there for Liz after Alex died, but she sure wasn't there for him after the white room. He threatened to take back his friendship. Well, hell, so did Alex. He dropped her after giving blood because she wouldn't tell him what was going on. Max was snide and sarcastic. So were Alex (want my blood, urine sample, kidney?) and Kyle (I don't know what I ever saw in you). He grabbed her arm. Michael manhandled Tess. Max was mean to Isabel once, the girl who dumps Alex while flirting with Grant, who lies to Alex about not being able to be in a relationship, only to be dating Grant by her birthday party, tells Alex about her plans to find some random guy in Vegas. All these behaviors are the same.

Should he have done those things? No, of course not. But, then again, neither should the rest of them. He wasn't any better or any worse than any of the others. Everyone goes on and on about how horrible the year was for Liz. Try the two years for Max. Stalked for a whole year at school, at work, at home, in the hospital, on roadtrips, in the woods for crying out loud by the FBI and the sheriff, watched constantly while they hope to expose him as an alien. And not the others, just him. Kidnapped and held at gunpoint by Hubble and Brody. Captured and tortured by the special unit. Left the very next day by the girl who claims to love him. And I'm leaving a lot of stuff out. I keep wondering when his experiences count. I always wonder why it is that he's not a teenage kid who is completely overloaded and overwhelmed, but somehow a spoiled brat.

I swear, it sucks to be Max.

I agreed with absolutely *everything* that you said.

Max moved on when Liz gave him the final "I've been in pain for a whole year, suffocating (because of you), maybe it would be better if we just realized it was over" speech. Then, the very next thing he sees is Liz dancing with Maria, looking like the weight of the world is finally off her shoulders, now that she got rid of the millstone that was around her neck. *This* was the moment when he gave up hope of ever getting back together with Liz, almost a whole year after she left him. He lasted a lot longer than I ever would have, with absolutely no encouragement from her at all.

That was horrible. I felt like Liz was kicking a puppy at that moment. He looked so hurt and alone, and then after she said all of those things she looked so carefree... I don't blame him for breaking.

I keep wondering when his experiences count. I always wonder why it is that he's not a teenage kid who is completely overloaded and overwhelmed, but somehow a spoiled brat.

I swear, it sucks to be Max

You're my hero. 'Nuff said.

love them - all broad shoulders, narrow waists, big hands, lol

I was in love with Michael Phelps for months after the summer Olympics. Those guys are just hot.

After reading the last few posts I am torn between who loves who more.
Please behr* with me thru this post. It's going to sound like a complete dichotomy but you'll see my decision at the end of the post.

I feel Max has been hurt by Liz on more than one occasion. After Destiny with her leaving him, then End of the World which causes Max to let tess sit with him. Liz constantly saying her and Kyle made love. The speech at Prom and then her other speech in 'Its too late and its too bad' which causes him to go to Tess. And therefore resulting in the biggest mistake of his life.


Max isn't innocent in all of this either. After Liz told him that speech he left the room and sat on a bench. Tess wasn't there at first then she appears out of nowhere and sits next to him. It wasn't Liz's fault he spontaneously remembered Tess from their other life. That was all him. He decided to kiss Tess that's his fault. Next after the "Wake Up" speech from Liz which causes him to think about Tess. So he goes to the observatory and as usual she automatically shows up. He decides to have sex with her and then as Isabel put it had "Morning-After anxieties" afterwards. That was all him too.

So I think it was Liz who loved Max more. She left him in Destiny so he could be with Tess. She gave up her happiness because a future version of Max asked her to. Then she forgives him in Departure after his speech. Then tries to help him find his son. That is definitely Love. She practically gave up everything for him.

This may be a bit of a muddled post, as I try and debate with myself the answer to this topic... So bare with me, there will be an answer at the end of it.

Wow, after reading the last few posts, I don't think I have anything to raise. It's really tough between who loved who more. I'm leaning towards Liz loving Max more though, mainly because Max would've ignored Liz's call in Season 3 to see his son. However, you can't disregard the unconditional love between a parent and a child (granted, he's never seen him).

To be honest, I don't think Max really questioned Liz about her actions. It was completely out of character for Liz to sleep with Kyle. Max had feelings, and slept with Tess, while Liz was unable to do anything with Sean. Granted, people do stupid things when they've lost the love of there life, and cling onto the first person who shows they care (ie. Tess with Max).

Therefore, in answer to the question, I think Liz shows her loyalty, and love towards Max more so. I do not disregard Max's feelings, however I feel that he didn't act as someone who loved, and knew someone would do. The moment that really got to me, is when Liz was going to Sweden and Max, although argued with her, still let her go. He didn't know what dangers were there, and appeared too wrapped up in Tess to care.

My two cents... I don't honestly think this question can be answered straight out. I think the level of love they had for each other varied through out the show. At some points Max loved Liz more, at others Liz loved Max more; as their love for each other over the course of the show was built up and torn down and rebuilt.

Okay, so I'v been avoiding this thread since forever because I see no true answer to the question either way you look at it. The truth is simply that you can't measure love; its something that you have bass on faith. And although many have wished that they could count it up, its always going to be an enigma and an ad infinitum feeling. And to add on to that, I don't think anyone can put an amount on any feeling. It's simply impossible because its a inanimate thing in life.

So simply your never going to get an answer, only that simply they were just a couple of kids in love with each other dispite the the events that happend in the show. They were in love, and that's all that really counts

Okay, this is a pretty, big debate.

Which person loves the other more? (Max or Liz)

- Hmmm... interesting question. And a difficult one to answer but i'll give it my best shot. It's a difficult question to answer because everyone is going to bring forth their own interpretation on what really defines "love."

Honestly, the way i see it, this question has to be dissected season by season. Because quite frankly, the writers changed the foundation/essense of Max and Liz each season. They were not the same characters for all 3 seasons.

Season one Max and Liz will forever be my favorite Dreamer season. Why? Because this season demonstrated a "blossoming love story" void of cheesy, soap opera dramatics. The "growing bond/love" that was felt is mutual between both parties. It presented a love story that is both timeless and ageless because it is full of depth and touches the soul. It was not a "superficial-based" relationship based on "looks", "sex", and "third party interferences." Now, the end of season one brought Tess, and with it the threat of a "third party interference." However, we quickly learned by season's end (from the White Room and a discussion between Isabel + Tess) that Tess was using her mindwarping ability to implant suggestions in Max's mind regarding their "destiny." It left Max feeling controlled, confused, and disturbed. But in the end, Max used his will to rise above those feelings and he did not submit to Tess (he gently turns her down in Destiny). Throughout this season, both M/L faced obstacles together and it demonstrated some very important facets of what encompasses love: communication, trust, loyalty, faith, committment, and self-sacrifice! These attributes were exhibited by both Max and Liz throughout the season.

Season 2 Max and Liz, unfortunately took a turn into "soap opera central." The focus point was no longer on a "mutual/loving" relationship with "normal bumps in the road" but instead turned the corner into "how much angst can we use to drive this couple apart into someone else's arms." See, the reminents of season 1 M/L were driving season 2 but it became a buried illusion b/c the problem with soap opera antics is that the relationships are based on a "revolving doors" concept. People swing back and forth into relationships with people with every excuse in the book. When the foundation shifts from "love" to "angst" we switch from loyal, committed, communicative scenerios to non-loyal, non-communicative, non-committed, scheming, secretive, and angry situations. When this occurs, the characters change.

Therefore, as season 2 progressed, it became evident that M/L were no longer being presented as a "love story" but as an "angst story" instead. Granted, Max still professed his love for Liz and Liz was self-less and sacrificed her relationship w/Max to save the world so certain aspects of "love" were still there. However, the whole plot premise for M/L in season 2 was essentially about sacrificing "love" in the name of "destiny." So, while they still cared for each other and it showed, "love" took a backseat while season 2 tore down what season 1 had built up. It brought out very negative extreme behavior in max and liz that shouldn't have been there b/c there comes a time when "actions speak louder than words."

Because of the soap opera dynamic, i don't think i can say that either M/L loved the other one more for this season because soap opera story style is set up to be over-dramatic. But i will say this. Liz was definitely more self-less and Max more persistant/committed to the idea of them up until the end of season 2. Then, the development of Max and Liz just shattered into a million pieces. It was the ultimate destruction.

The M/T "sex" bothers me for several reasons. Yes, my argument is going to stand a bit more pro-Liz as i make my reasons clear. First, i'd like to address the argument that states Liz "pushed Max to Tess." That is not entirely true. Because of the Fmax dilemna, Liz is what i refer to as a "reluctant" participant. Which means, because she did Fmax's bidding, she is entitled to all her feelings of hurt and betrayal upon the M/T "union." Yes, she takes partial blame for going along with the plan; however, it is ultimately Fmax that pushed Max/Tess together! Fmax wanted it that way not our Liz. Secondly, Liz actually only tried hooking M/T up once during TEOTW! After that, she kept her distance and it was Max who spent time with Tess through his own choices without any prompting from Liz. So, Liz really can't be blamed for "pushing them together." Max had to choose to go to Tess! Next, the argument that says "Liz sleeping with Kyle" pushed Max to be with Tess. I don't find that to be true at all. Max had let that go when he decided to be friends with her again in the end of Max In The City. He said he missed their friendship and wanted to start all over! No, i think Max was still hanging on to hope that it could work out between them eventually until she crushed his hopes at the Prom. He essentially went to Tess because he couldn't be with Liz.

Which brings me to my big problem with Max and the M/T "sex." I don't like Tess (and she used him) but Max technically used her. Max was always resisting his "destiny" with Tess and never once did he show any genuine interest in being with her but then BAM... within a couple eppys he has a major fallout with Liz and sleeps with Tess. What happened to the honorable Max filled with integrity from season 1 that boldly declared, "I won't let some book tell me what to do"? They turned him into the proverbial, soap opera guy that turns to the other woman he doesn't love when he has a major fallout with the one he loves. And while Max technically may not be a "cheater" b/c he wasn't "with" Liz, the action is still distasteful and unappealing in character. It may have been a "mistake", but it's not a "mistake" everyone makes especially not season 1 Max. Season 1 Max would have backed away from Tess out of respect for her if he knew he really didn't want to be with her. If he couldn't be with Liz, he would have stayed by himself or waited until someone else came along that he wanted to be with. That's the type of guy he was presented as. Hence, here lies the problem with season 2 Max: What happens the next time there is a major fallout that requires communication to resolve the problem? Does Max fall back on this particular "weakness" to get him through it? Because this type of "weakness" is a relationship killer!

Lastly, my problem with the M/T "sex" and how it destroyed the essense of M/L is that it presented the audience with the typical, double standard message of the guy loosing his virginity to someone he doesn't even love and want to be with while the girl "saves" herself to the very end! Blah Blah.... there's nothing wrong with that concept but how about having it work both ways for a change!

Season 3 Max and Liz i couldn't relate to at all. I didn't like the bad boy image they gave Max and Liz was just there to be his loyal girlfriend while Max was preoccupied with finding his son. I wasn't feeling the love and season 3 downplayed the whole soulful "connection" of season 1 M/L that made them special. The network/writers made them appear like 2 teenagers "in lust" rather than "in love." But if i had to choose for season 3 (and as much as it made me cringe b/c the writers just threw them back together without a realistic resolution to season 2), i'd say Liz appeared to demonstrate more love for Max through her actions. The whole season was practically about Max finding his son (i absolutely hated this storyline) while Liz stood by patiently and loyally!

Whew... i realize that was long! Sorry! [/i]

i think that max loves liz more because of all of the stuff he went though and he knew that it was wrong.