Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

[Raychelxluscious]

I agree completely. I think that they both made huge mistakes. I also think that the reason that they didn't give up and walk away from the relationship was because they loved each other. Both knew that they could never live without the other in their lives, so it was worth it for them to go through all of that pain.

Did that make and sense at all?

Absolutely! It made perfect sense, and I completely agree. Their love for each other is what kept them together (and also what caused some of the problems. -lol- go. figure.) I'm glad that they did end up together in the end, and I think some of the time apart benefited (sp?) them nicely. =]

Raychel

[Raychelxluscious]

We'll just have to disagree. Whether Max and Liz were both joking or not, it was still disrespectful and they both should have known better. Liz for joking about Alex's death if that was her intention and Max for joking about having sex with Tess and getting her pregnant. Max surely wasn't joking when he was having sex on an observatory floor with Tess, so he shouldn't have tried to act like it wasn't a big deal in Busted. But then again, Liz should have walked away from Max for good, so she must have taken it as one big joke also.

I agree with some of what you said here. Though I still feel it was a joking manner, it shouldn't have been done in the first place. Death over a friend and a missing child are no laughing matters, so I get what you're saying...

Max "fell out of love with Liz" in TEOTW, so it wasn't strange to me that Max didn't care about Liz's feelings anymore. Again, it was Liz's fault that she stayed with Max and became his doormat, so he could find his son. Liz had every opportunity during S3 to wake up and move on, but instead she didn't. Hell, Max was getting on a spaceship in Control and leaving the planet to save his son. I'm glad that Max was searching for his son, but Liz should have known that she wasn't needed in that search from the very beginning.

Right, Max did - by Future Max's standards - fall out of love with her in ETOW. However, by the end of S2, he was back in love with her, wasn't he? They seemed to be on their way to reconciliation during Viva Las Vegas...and then the other, annoying stuff happened ...and then the Tess/Alex fiasco, and blah, blah, blah. But didn't Max say that he loved Liz during Departure?

I don't necessarily think that Max didn't care about her feelings, I just feel that he had a bit of tunnel vision when his son was concerned. Maybe he didn't see the way it was hurting Liz everytime he mentioned Tess or the baby (but again, not completely his fault. Liz should have voiced this as well, I believe).

I do agree that Liz kind of became a doormat for Max, especially when she was helping him search for his son. I think she was trying to "prove" herself or something...*shrug*

I have to give Liz credit though, she takes a beating and goes right back in for more. When she finally has enough, she then packs her bags and leaves town. Liz was always best at running away from her problems instead of facing them head on.

I'm not sure I quite agree with you here. What has she ever run from? Like I said, I haven't seen all that much of S3. When was it she left for Vermont? I'm assuming that's one of the things she ran from, but what were the other instances?

I'm a dreamer - hard core. I loved both Max and Liz's characters (despite their imperfections), but I'm trying to keep an open mind concerning where you're coming from...

Raychel

[~*Sonia E.*~]

~*Sonia E.*~ : Good to know I made some sense up there

I can't really figure out what your opinion is about all of this. You seem (and this is definitely not an insult) very extreme about everything. You say Max and Liz should have walked away from each other; does that mean you think both of their actions were unforgivable?

You seem to lead more toward disliking Liz's actions (and again, I understand if you do), so I'm just wondering what you're precise opinion is on this matter. I just don't want to confuse what you're saying, and then say something that could be viewed as rude. I also came to the discussion late, and I haven't read over all of you're posts, just the last few.

I will say though, if I'm interpreting your post above correctly, that I disagree. It seems like you're saying that either way, it's Liz's fault. If Max acts like a jerk, it's Liz's fault that she didn't walk away, and if Liz acts like a witch, then she has to take responsibility for her actions. I just don't think that this fair to Liz.

This is all just my opinion, of course, and sorry if I interpreted your posts incorrectly.

I'm sorry I didn't answer you sooner, I didn't see your post.

I know I'm extreme and I didn't mean to confuse you with my posts.

I loved the character of Liz Parker, she was my favorite female character and believe it or not Tess was my second. I used to be really Anti-Tess, but I've come to change my opinion of her. I think Liz should have taken a few pointers from Tess and gone after what she wanted (except the killing of Alex, of course).

Later on Liz did go after what she wanted, but she became a doormat in the process. If only she would have stood by Max in Destiny and not run away to Florida for the summer, Liz and Max might have had a fighting chance.

I think both Max and Liz were jerks. Instead of constantly being open and honest with each other after Tess came, they let it fall by the wayside. All they needed to do was talk like they used to and get everything out into the open. TEOTW just gave Liz another excuse to push Max further away. I think Liz should have told Max about Future Max and together they could have come up with a plan. But, that's what I would have done. Given her situation, I believe Liz did what she thought was best.

Please feel free to say what you want, you don't have to worry about coming off rude. I loved both Max and Liz and their relationship in S1; S2 and S3 were not my favorites and left a lot to be desired. I can't see why Max and Liz still wanted to be together without resolving the issues within their relationship. So, if I come off too extreme just ignore me and my ramblings, my daughter sure does.

[maxandliz4ever1357]

Thanks Sonia.

I was thinking, after reading some of your opinions, that if I was looking at the whole Max/Liz situation from an objective point of view, I would probably agree with you. I would think that Liz should walk away and never look back. However, my poor little dreamer heart just won't let me say that about M/L.

I also remember, when I was watching the episodes for the first time, thinking those same exact thoughts (Why is Liz being such a doormat??? Why is Max being such an ass??), but I think I've forgotten, since I've been in a lot of discussions that have relaxed my views (or rather, calmed my rage ). I even remember at one point refusing pointblank to buy the 2nd season (and I still haven't) since, to me, it's the source of all evil . I also haven't bought the 3rd season (is it out? I'm pretty sure it's out) because everything after EotW I just didn't like. In fact, I barely re-watch the show anymore; I read fanfiction instead.

After writing all this, the one thought that comes to my mind is; the writers had such great opportunity with this show, and they ran it into the ground. *Sigh* Thank goodness for Fanfiction.

[Raychelxluscious]

Later on Liz did go after what she wanted, but she became a doormat in the process. If only she would have stood by Max in Destiny and not run away to Florida for the summer, Liz and Max might have had a fighting chance.

Okay, here I can see the instance where you said Liz was good at running from her problems.

Yeah, I understand. Cause I remember recalling that Liz had just left Max after he'd been tortured, and when he needed her most. I bet it was a very traumatic experience for him after she left.

However, I can understand why she left, though I don't agree with it. She was just told that Max had a whole other destiny. I wish she'd have stayed and fought for her relationship with Max, but she was just 16 - still really young.

I think both Max and Liz were jerks. Instead of constantly being open and honest with each other after Tess came, they let it fall by the wayside. All they needed to do was talk like they used to and get everything out into the open. TEOTW just gave Liz another excuse to push Max further away. I think Liz should have told Max about Future Max and together they could have come up with a plan. But, that's what I would have done. Given her situation, I believe Liz did what she thought was best.

I don't object to this, but I have to say that I kind of liked EOTW. It brought obstacles (kind of like why I was so intrigued by Tess. It was just one more thing for Max and Liz's love to overcome.) I don't particularly agree that Liz should have told Max about Future Max, but I can see the logic behind that. It would have saved us dreamers (as well as Max) some heartache.

After writing all this, the one thought that comes to my mind is; the writers had such great opportunity with this show, and they ran it into the ground. *Sigh* Thank goodness for Fanfiction.

I'll drink to that!!

Raychel

[~*Sonia E.*~]

I agree with some of what you said here. Though I still feel it was a joking manner, it shouldn't have been done in the first place. Death over a friend and a missing child are no laughing matters, so I get what you're saying...

That's when I knew that the Max and Liz that I loved were gone, and never to be heard from again.

Right, Max did - by Future Max's standards - fall out of love with her in ETOW. However, by the end of S2, he was back in love with her, wasn't he? They seemed to be on their way to reconciliation during Viva Las Vegas...and then the other, annoying stuff happened ...and then the Tess/Alex fiasco, and blah, blah, blah. But didn't Max say that he loved Liz during Departure?

I don't know if Max was back in love with Liz at the end of S2 or not. Yes, Max told Liz "not like I love you" in Departure, meaning that he was in love with Tess and Liz. Max was leaving the planet with Tess and his son, so I didn't take his statement to Liz as a wonderful parting gift. Max did give Liz his pendant, so she could remember him though. *shrug*

I don't necessarily think that Max didn't care about her feelings, I just feel that he had a bit of tunnel vision when his son was concerned. Maybe he didn't see the way it was hurting Liz everytime he mentioned Tess or the baby (but again, not completely his fault. Liz should have voiced this as well, I believe).

I do agree that Liz kind of became a doormat for Max, especially when she was helping him search for his son. I think she was trying to "prove" herself or something...*shrug*

Max and Liz should have had a long talk about their issues and worked towards forgiveness. I didn't see that happening at all, and Liz just lost her backbone to accommodate Max. That just hit home to me that Max and Liz were truly over since Destiny.

I'm not sure I quite agree with you here. What has she ever run from? Like I said, I haven't seen all that much of S3. When was it she left for Vermont? I'm assuming that's one of the things she ran from, but what were the other instances?

Liz left Max and went to Florida for the summer in Destiny. Then after becoming Max's doormat and her powers started to flare up, she left Max again in Ch-Ch-Changes for boarding school in Vermont. Yep, when the going gets tough, Liz gets going. I can understand Liz needing time away from Max when her powers started flaring up, but she should have woken up long before that.


maxandliz4ever1357, you're welcome and I have to keep remembering that the show has been gone for 3 years now. Sometimes I just can't keep my thoughts to myself and still discuss Roswell, when I said I wouldn't bother.

You're right TPTB had such a great opportunity with the show, but alas it was not meant to be. I have S1 and S2 on DVD(I know S2....blah), but I haven't purchased S3 yet. I don't know if I'm going to but it was released on August 9th.

[~*Sonia E.*~]

I don't object to this, but I have to say that I kind of liked EOTW. It brought obstacles (kind of like why I was so intrigued by Tess. It was just one more thing for Max and Liz's love to overcome.) I don't particularly agree that Liz should have told Max about Future Max, but I can see the logic behind that. It would have saved us dreamers (as well as Max) some heartache.

TEOTW was definitely not my favorite episode. To me, it was the end of Max and Liz and the Roswell that I knew and loved. I did think that Jason and Shiri's acting was marvelous though, but the outcome to TEOTW sucked big time.

I think Liz should have told Max about Future Max. Since she never did in the end anyway, it must not have been an important event for TPTB. That was one big issue that Max and Liz needed to discuss, and it was just glossed over and swept under the rug.

[Raychelxluscious]

I think Liz should have told Max about Future Max. Since she never did in the end anyway, it must not have been an important event for TPTB. That was one big issue that Max and Liz needed to discuss, and it was just glossed over and swept under the rug.

It was "swept under the rug" simply because the editor's (much like the writer's) were a smidge high and cut out the scene where Max and Liz discussed - in the jeep - what happened during that time. It was supposed to be brought up in the original episode of Departure.

...or was that a rumor? *sigh* So many of them, but I think that one's true. Could be wrong though.

However, I still found that ETOW was a great episode, but I understand why you and others don't, so no worries. I liked it because of the conflict it brought, y'know what I mean? Again, it was just another obstacle for them to overcome so they could be together. Yet, as you said, it appears it was swept under the rug.

*'nother sigh* Our fanfic writer's could have done a *much* better job at S2 and 3, no doubt.

Raychel

[maxandliz4ever1357]

However, I still found that ETOW was a great episode, but I understand why you and others don't, so no worries. I liked it because of the conflict it brought, y'know what I mean? Again, it was just another obstacle for them to overcome so they could be together. Yet, as you said, it appears it was swept under the rug.

I actually liked EotW too, I thought it was such a wasted opportunity. It was like they didn't do anything with it after that.

*'nother sigh* Our fanfic writer's could have done a *much* better job at S2 and 3, no doubt.

Tell me about it!! Could you imagine what Roswell would have been like in the hands of some of RF's best writers? *Sigh*

[Raychelxluscious]

*'nother sigh* Our fanfic writer's could have done a *much* better job at S2 and 3, no doubt.

Tell me about it!! Could you imagine what Roswell would have been like in the hands of some of RF's best writers? *Sigh*

I prefer not to think about it. It's too painful to fanthom. -hehe!-

Raychel