Sin wrote:
I understand that. He thought that she didn't love him. Understandable. I just thought his love for her would keep him from being able to move forward and make a life with Tess which is what he was going to do.
and why?
what? he should await forever? he should become a priest or what? come on!
and, again:
1) he didn't sleep with Tess nor he ever tried to start a relationship with her just because Liz didn't want him. otherwise he had all the time to do it.
Max did await Liz for a whole year! what you wanted more?
2) it wasn't just Liz his problem. He felt that he did lose everything, even her friendship, even her trust, even her care! Like if *she* saw him as the responsible of Alex's death. Then add that Max felt forced to make a choice between what he really wanted and what he had to be.
They told him that he was not only the leader but a king and Tess was his supposed wife. it was told him that his life and what he wanted wasn't true. it was told him that he was dreaming and he had to wake up because earth wasn't home, he wasn't human. he had to give up and accept his destiny
it was so much more than what you said!!!
you wanted from him way too much. you wanted from him something that is unreasonable for every human being!
Max was really into a bad state. lets see (i try):
- he loved this woman for 10 years of his life without ever getting the chance to transform his dream into something real because for him he was a monster and Liz could have never loved him back. One day this woman is in danger and without thinking twice he saved her life. That day his life both ended and began
because he payed his good action. He payed it with Michael and Isabel who criticized his choice because he did put all of them in danger for Liz, and it was true because he basically destroyed their cover. he payed it because he became the mean alien killer and they (FBI, Valenti) put on his shoulders the responsibility of the deaths of all those people that Nacedo killed.
In the end he finally got the chance to be happy and loved by that woman he saved because Liz loved him back with all her heart, she didn't care about the danger, she didn't care about normal, she didn't see him like a freak. she saw him like a person and loved him for who he really was and not who he could be or he could do. But then one day someone (Tess) came to roswell and told him that they were like robots programmed to be together. So they were not only aliens and "different" but they weren't even real children conceived by someone in the natural way. they were assembled and manipulated in order to mate with each other. He didn't even get the time to understand what was happening because Pierce captured him and tortured him into a way that honestly is really inhuman and it's something that NO ONE in roswell ever lived. they tortured him both physically and psychologically, they almost opened/operated him alive in order to get answers that he couldn't even give! they used him like if he was nothing more than a mouse used for experiments. they drugged him, they used electroshock. they blackmailed him making him see Liz's death.
This thing alone is not a small detail. this is something that changed him forever. He will never heal from it and it doesn't help that he didn't really get the time and space in the show in order to really get over it.
In W Las Vegas Michael accused Max of not healing him inside but no one healed Max inside after this nightmare and it's not that Max tried to ask for help, it seemed that his problems were only his while he had to resolve the others' problems.
Anyway, right after what happened with Pierce he saw this momogram where not only they told him that he really was "programmed" , he was a king, Tess was his wife, Michael the second in command, and Isabel the princess. together they were supposed to save a planet! with what and how they could do it is still a mystery for me! He didn't even get the time to get over it that Liz, the woman he loved, left him because he had a destiny and she didn't feel a part of it.
you accuse Max of losing his faith but it happened to Liz too! She made the decision for both of them and she left him when he needed her the most.
But Max didn't fault her for her. he was awaiting, he was hoping and he was trying to be the leader he was supposed to be.
he tried to move into Liz's direction. he tried to make her understand that no matter what he wanted to be with her and he didn't care about his destiny with Tess. he felt nothing for her. then in teotw he even tried to get her attention singing for her. But it didn't work. Liz told him that they couldn't be together.
She told him that she didn't want to die for him, that she wanted to fall in love with a normal guy, that she wanted safety. something that Max couldn't give her. But Max didn't give up and he still hoped, he wasn't angry with her. but in the end he saw her in bed with Kyle! and then she confirmed it (because even if he saw it with his own eyes he still didn't want to believe it)
this was not his Liz! this wasn't the Liz he fell in love with! She wasn't. all the things that she always told him, all the things she did for him.. it seemed for him that they were fake like if he believed into something that wasn't real
In season 2 he tried his best. He still had hopes for them. even when Liz hurt him into this way he didn't give up and it's not that he started a relationship with Tess. Even in Max in the city when he was angry with Liz and he was alone with Tess nothing happened between them. he started to accept her as a part of the group, as someone like Michael and Isabel, but his feelings for Liz didn't change.
But with the time he started to forgive her about Kyle because he basically understood that after all she was right. She had everything to lose with him. he couldn't give her "normal" nor safety and what happened in that season proved it to him even more.
See the scene from "we're a family" he felt that with him she couldn't even grow. She wanted to travel like Alex but he couldn't give it to her.
IMO he started to understand why she slept with Kyle and why she didn't want him anymore. She basically confirmed him something that he already knew: he was different, she was human. they couldn't be together.
I believe that the more Liz pushed him away the more he started to give up about destiny. why still fight for something that only Max wanted? why still fight when everything told him that it was more easy for everyone if he gave up about destiny and started to be what it was his duty to be?
see, it was much more than just Liz and her love. When Liz accused him of being responsible of Alex's death (after he wasn't able to bring him back to life) it was like the last thing that made him explode. The ultimate proof that for his fault they couldn't have normal, for his fault, for his "dreams", they were all in danger and Alex died. He really was that monster, why still dream about something that wasn't real anymore?
and with him there was Tess. Tess seemed to have all the answers. Tess seemed to offer him something real. she never stopped to remember him that he had to be Zan and their home wasn't earth. Add that she gave him memories about antar where they loved each other.
it was just too late and too bad for Max to still fight. he was a mess. he couldn't. he had nothing.
again, Max couldn't know the truth about Liz. He was living his alternative reality. His Liz wasn't the real one. If he had know then we couldn't be here talking about what happened because there's no way he could sleep with Tess
how he could believe in Liz and their love when his Liz wasn't the real one and their love was destroyed?
he said it in the harvest. it was like if everything he believed she was and they were in season 1 was an illusion. because of her words and her actions.
Max gave her another chance but it was too late and he couldn't know the truth. even in W Las Vegas when he got that flash of them married, Liz still didn't tell him the truth. and then in "heart of mine" she made that confusing speech when they were dancing. for Max what she said was "don't dream anymore it's over"
I don't think that it's what Liz wanted to say, but Liz forgot that Max didn't know what she knew and she didn't understand that with what she made Max to believe he couldn't understand what she was really telling him
Ultimately Max made major steps to move on with his life and away from Liz.
it wasn't his choice
he tried to be with Liz even if it meant to be just a friend. But she pushed him away too especially in heart of mine
even in "off the menù" she was cold with him
what he was supposed to do?
what you would do into the same situation and with what he knew? i'm curious.
and again, Liz moved on too.
she dated (and wanted to date) Sean and kissed him even before Max kissed Tess and took in consideration the idea.
even in heart of mine she went to him and she wrote that page of her diary where she said that you can't help what your heart feels.
My point is that Liz couldn't do that.
my point is that Liz could do that and i showed why
also my point is that no matter if they were able to do it, it doesn't devalue their love for each other because it's human the way they tried to survive because they couldn't be with each other.
And before you say that her situation was different I don't believe her situation was all that different.
the situation was very different. i won't say why again. i explained it here very much why it was, i'm starting to feel like a broken CD.
Yes she knew that Max loved her but he still chose to leave her.
after she chose to leave him!
You can tell someone that you love them a thousand times however his actions showed that he was leaving her for Tess and baby.
you can tell someone that you love them a thousand times however HER actions from destiny to the end of season 2 showed that she was moving on and she didn't want to be with him anymore.
again, Liz knew that it was her fault too and she was the one who destroyed the Liz Max knew and loved.
again, the truth is too important.
how can't have faith into something that isn't true.
and again, just because she didn't sleep with Sean it doesn't mean that she didn't want to move on
i don't think that she would be alone forever. this doesn't mean that she would have loved another man like she loved Max.
again, just because someone's personality is stronger than another one (about something like sex into a certain point of their life) it doesn't mean that one love the other one more.
I'm not persecuting Max. I am just showing that Liz was "faithful" to him and that she loved him soo much that she couldn't see herself with anyone else when everything was done. Threw it all it was him for her. She would have never been happy with anyone else but him.
she didn't show him! she showed him the contrary, that's the whole point!
are we still taking for granted that Max knew what we knew? *goes into a coma*
Correct me if I am wrong. I'm paraphrasing but I think this was the jist of the conversation.
Max: We have to stand together
Liz: Do you believe that Alex could have been killed by an alien
Max: No
Liz: Then I guess I can't be apart of the group
Liz was willing to work together If Max budged even the slightest bit, it was his refusal of her that caused her to walk away from the group and not accept his "authority".
it seems to me that Max was the one who said that they had to stand together.
and again, Liz could be willing to work with him like you want but she didn't give him the truth. and i don't understand how she made things more easy for him when she accused him of being responsible of Alex's death.
she wanted him to believe in her at any cost and at the same time she did hurt him without realizing it and she didn't tell him the real reason of why she was so sure that Alex couldn't die into this timeline
again, how Max could still believe in her if his Liz wasn't the real one?
I don't think so. She was willing to work with Max and even compromise it wasn't until Max refused her and then forced their friendship to end that Max made the desicion to leave her. Liz wasn't the one who wanted to end their friendship. Liz wasn't the one who was threatening them and what they meant to eachother. That was all Max.
yes but Liz totally forgot what she did to Max since TEOTW. she totally forgot that he didn't know the truth and he couldn't know that she was right.
from Max's POV Liz had no right to be still someone that he had to believe at any cost and i don't blame him because 'his' Liz wasn't an angel and she wasn't the one he loved.
Liz was obsessed with finding Alex's killer.
Because she knew that he couldn't die and because she felt, illogically, responsible of his death since she was the one who chanced the future.
Alex was in danger. Alex died and she needed to find the truth about this death. Alex was, obviously, a priority for her more than Max, who wasn't in danger, her friends, her money, her parents, her own life.
contrary of what you said about Max i'm
not saying that Max had to be her priority at any cost. i'm just showing you that sometimes your priority can't be the person you're in love with especially if that person isn't in danger. sometimes you don't have a choice and it's not really about priority
if you can't see that even for Liz, sometimes, Max COULDN't be a priority then it means that we have a different way to see what a human priority is.
anyway, i find illogical that you see it only on Max.
it's not that he always was her priority either.
see "changes" when she was sick and she left him. He obviously couldn't be her priority! it's perfectly normal.
again, we want tooo much from these people.
Not really. He was met with irrevocable proof that something was seriously other worldly and he couldn't live in denial anymore because he had Maria, Kyle, Liz and Michael starring him in the face telling him it was true. That's not believing in her. Believing in her would mean being by her side even when there wasn't dna evidence starring at his face.
see, i don't think that it really was about believing in her or not.
Because the problem for me is that Max knew from the start that she was right. he wasn't so stupid. but even if he knew that she was right it doesn't mean that he could accept the idea.
for Max it was just too much. He needed time.
this doesn't mean that he was right!
I'm just saying that he had his reasons for not accept her theory and he told Michael too.
he couldn't bear the thought that Alex died for his fault.
i don't understand why it's so hard to see and understand.
Except Liz never stopped. She always believed in him even when they were in the outs which was why she was so floored by his confessions to her that she lost it completely and lashed out at him in Departure.
sorry me but when she proved it?
surely not in heart of mine and not when she pushed away their friendship and told him that he had to wake up
it's not that she was awaiting for his help and believed that he could resolve the situation. on the contrary she felt that she was the only one right.
sorry me but it's inevitable that at one point she didn't believe in him especially when he was an ass with her.
Just like it was inevitable that at one point he didn't believe in her especially when she was a bitch with him.
but Max who stopped believing in Liz.
can you blame him with what he knew and what she did to him?
again, how he could believe in Liz when she told him lies and his Liz wasn't the real one?
there was nothing real to believe, in the first place.
it was a miracle that he was her friend till that moment.
and he was still with her even if their their relationship was strained when she attacked him in cry your name and ITAITB
Perhaps in CYN, but definetely not in ITBAITL or BIY
because for you she was with him and believed into their relationship from heart of mine to ITBAITL and BIY?
and don't tell me that he was an ass with her because then you have to remember that for Max Liz wasn't herself for the whole season 2 and she did hurt him a lot.
just because Liz had to lie and she wasn't the one he made Max believe she was it doesn't mean that her behavior didn't affect Max and didn't hurt him. for him it was everything real!
I don't agree. In Heart Of Mine she still loved him. She still wanted to be with him. She still believed in him.
but she didn't show it!!
on the contrary she ended their relationship even more!
But she was still resigned to the fact that she wasn't good for him and that he needed to be with Tess.
and Max was still resigned to the fact that he wasn't good for her and she needed to be with a normal boy who could let her breathe.
this is called real angst!
That he wanted to be with Tess and it was because she loved him that she pushed her towards him.
he didn't want to be with Tess. even when he started to remember he didn't start a relationship with Tess (for the matter, he didn't even after they sleep together. the baby forced them to be together). he wanted to tell Liz about his memories because they didn't change how he felt toward her. he still had hopes. he went at the prom with her not Tess.
It also didn't help that she saw them kissing not ten minutes after he danced with her.
after what she told him what she experted? she basically ended their relationship. i correct. she ended the possibility that they could have been a couple again
what you think that Max believed after she told him what she told him? especially without knowing the truth about her feelings?
after Liz told him this:
LIZ No, Max, it can be. It can be really, really easy. You know, we both just stop pretending.
MAX What do you mean?
LIZ
You know, maybe we're both just holding on to something that'll never be. Max, maybe we should just let go. I have been in so much pain. This whole year. and it's like I'm suffocating.
MAX Liz
how can you not realize what it meant for him? she was damn confusing!
how her words could show him that she still wanted him, she still believed in them?
She didn't stop loving him or stop believing in him.
but this is the problem here. from Max's pov she really stopped to love him and believe in him
and it's not so hard to see why.
She just thought that he needed to be with Tess and it's because she loved him so completely (and the fact that everything was telling her that they needed to be together even themselves) that she let him go.
this is exactly what Max did too.
because he loved her he let her go in order to get what she wanted. (but it seems that for you only Liz could do it without showing that she didn't love him enough. so i don't understand your theory about faith into their relationship and the way they showed it. sorry me but it's really contradictory and hypocritical)
Liz told him that she didn't want to be with him. that she wanted to fall in love with a normal guy, that she needed to breathe and they needed to stop pretend that they could be together again. and Max let her go.
This is what I mean when I say that Liz's love is all consuming and selfless. Max always. Always. Always came before herself. Which was why she completely broke down in Ch-Ch-Changes because she was always looking out for Max's needs and wants before her own while she was slowly dying inside.
same goes for Max. He loved her so much that at one point he accepted that she didn't want to be with him anymore.
Liz broke down in changes (and the beginning of season 2). Max did it in too late and too bad. why only Liz could do it? it's the same.
if you see and understand Liz you have to do it with Max too. but you don't do it.
so again, i don't understand the purpose of this contradictory discussion
and i hate to do it again but i can't help but repeat the forgotten mantra: Max didn't know what YOU knew.
Max's love was all consuming and selfless too but since Liz wanted to save the world you don't notice his POV and how similar they were when they gave up and they had their personal crisis. How similar they were when they let go the other one for love and because they didn't want to ruin their life
He chose to lose everything.
he chose nothing when in TEOTW she ended their relationship and she keep on doing it over and over
what the heck he was supposed to do?
again, you forget that Max didn't know what you knew. Like if Liz never did what she did to him! Like if Liz never was the one who ended everything between them and broke his heart.
God save me!!!
What did he expect after his actions?
what did she expect after her actions and words?
reverse all the other phrases in the same way.
I know that
.
i find it really hard to believe
sorry but it doesn't seem to me that you REALLY know that or you take it in consideration
or maybe you know it but you don't care because Max had to be the perfect guy with the power to read minds and nothing could affect him and hurt him.
OMGThe point I was trying to make was that Liz was always loyal to him. Regardless of anything.
the point is that she wasn't always loyal to him. not the Liz he knew in season 2.
the Liz she herself created was everything but loyal and there was no way he could see the real Liz that YOU were seeing.
She did everything because he asked her to.
again, FMax asked her NOT Max!
Max didn't know any of this!!!
he asked her nothing! he wanted to be with her.
She wouldn't have done what she did for anyone except Max.
no doubt. but it isn't the point.
the point is that no matter what her reasons were she still did hurt Max
she did and said things that destroyed the Liz Max loved and created another one that he tried to understand but it was really hard for him because he didn't know the truth.
Future Max and regular Max are to different characters. I know that. But it was still "Max" who she did it for regardless.
yes but it isn't a justification. she did it for "him" but this doesn't change the fact that she did hurt him and broke his heart into pieces and he couldn't know what she was doing. it wasn't his fault and it will never be because he didn't make that the decision. he didn't even know that a decision had to be made, in the first place.
She couldn't tell him that was the entire reason she didn't. She couldn't risk making things worse then what they already were. Also telling Max would have made things worse. Tess could have ended up leaving because she wasn't making progress with Max and then they would have been in the same boat that they were in fourteen years in the future.
worse than how they already were? i find it hard to believe
but again you can't pretend that Max could still understand and believe in her at any cost without the truth
the truth is important into a relationship. you can't get something real when there's a big lie between them. and for that lie he couldn't understand many of the things that Liz was trying to tell him
also, after all, she told him after all this mess and they get together again. (and she told Maria even before it)
she did that because it was the best thing for him. Selfless love.
He did it because it was the best thing for her. Selfless love.
Not because she didn't want it but because she couldn't have it.
not because he didn't want it but because he couldn't have it
It was either be with Max or destroy the world and destroy Max.
it was either be with Liz or destroy her normal life and the others, and destroy Liz, and his duty toward his people and what he was supposed to be
That's not much of a choice
.
That's not much of a choice.
We all know that Liz would move the world to keep Max from feeling that kind of guilt and pain.
we all know that Max would move the world to keep Liz from feeling that kind of guilt and pain if he had know about what she was really doing.
Max couldn't know the truth because she wanted him safe and she wanted to save him from the fate that Future Max had. She never lost faith in him. Atleast not in my opinon. It was Max who lost faith in her.
again, she did lose her faith too. maybe not for you but for Max? yes. for me? yes. and she proved it with her words and actions. he had no other choice but accept that she didn't want to be with him anymore.
again, she did it for him but it doesn't delete what she really did to him and how it affected him.
Why everything was telling her that she couldn't be with him. The orbs, Nasedo, Future Max, Max himself in HOM, memory retrivals, ect. Everything was telling her to give him up because it was the best thing for him and she did. Selfless love.
why everything was telling him too that he couldn't be with her. The orbs, Nasedo, Liz in TEOTW, Liz himself in HOM, memory retrivals, Tess, ect.
everything was telling him to give her up because it was the best thing for her and he did. Selfless love.
Destiny was the same way. Nasedo, Orbs and Tess were all saying that he was meant to fufill his destiny with Tess and the four square group. She didn't want to come between that. She loved him enough to realize what he was supposed to do and move away from him so he could do what he had to. She gave him space to do what he needed. Also it wasn't as if Max felt nothing for Tess. He kissed her and he even said that he was attracted and drawn to her and he was even having sexual fantisies of her. Liz was making it easier for him to realize his "destiny" because that's what he needed to do and it's not as if Max fought very hard when they first met Tess. She thought it was inevitable.
firstly, the sexual fantasies were mindwarps and even Isabel realized it.
secondly, i don't disagree.
i just believe that you can apply it on Max too. but it seems to me that when M&L are doing the same thing one is good and the other one is evil incarnate.
again, it's not that for Max Liz wanted to be with him and she proved him. how he was supposed to know that she was doing what you just wrote?
he couldn't!
also, Liz wasn't indifferent to Sean too.
she kissed and dated him even before Max kissed someone who, at least, was his supposed wife and not a random girl!
not to mention that for Max Liz slept with Kyle. she moved on a year before he even took in consideration the idea to do the same thing!
again, don't look at what happened to Max using Liz's POV because otherwise it will never make sense because the Liz Max knew wasn't the same Liz YOU knew and he didn't know what YOU knew. he knew other things.
As to Ch-Ch-Changes she was a complete basket case both mentally and physically
and Max no!
he never suffered both mentally and physically! noooooo. they even tortured him like that!
in too late and too bad or most of season 2 or lets say most of his life he was a happy boy with his easy life!
due to the fact that she always put Max above herself and constantly surpressed her very real hurt feelings. She couldn't believe in anything, let alone herself. She was overwhelmed, overtaxed and exhausted to the extent where she couldn't see anything. She was gone and that wasn't her fault.
i agree.
but i see it for Max too.
She was barely able to hold herself together and the source of her pain was from Max himself. It wasn't about faith or love then.
same goes for Max when he had HIS personal crisis
She obviously loved him then because she was distraught by all the pain that he was causing her.
same goes for Max.
he couldn't be so hurt by her if he didn't obviously love her.
Her relationship with him was destroying her from the inside out and she needed to get away. It wasn't about faith. Liz was in real mental, emotional, spiritual and physical danger to herself and others. That's an entirely different situation. She had no control over that alien influence.
it seems to me that only when it's about Liz it wasn't about faith! this is funny.
they were both into a real mental, emotional, spiritual and physical danger to herself and others.
and it's not that Max had control over the alien influence. he basically had someone else inside him. look at what happened to isabel in season 3.
I will agree that she pushed him away.
now i fear that the world will really end!
However the question of faith is off. Ch-Ch-Changes was an entirely different situation, while EOTW and Destiny were both episodes where Liz loved him enough to let him go and to save him. It was never a question of love or faith.
same goes for Max.
again, everyone had their own reasons and don't forget what Liz did to him too in season 2 and how he couldn't know what she was really doing.
Max tried to survive betrayal and her horrible words just like Liz was hurt by his words and actions too.
it wasn't about faith and love, it was about to survive and being human with limits and vulnerabilities.
sometimes Liz gave up too
When?
destiny, heart of mine, the episodes after Alex's death. maybe departure too.
changes.
totally normal. at least for me
No. Liz lived with a much worse and much more grizzily nightmare.
i totally disagree. this is a POV from someone who looked at Liz only and never on Max too.
She was in a worse one.
again, i totally disagree.
and notice, i'm not saying that Max's was worse.
i just don't devalue their feelings like you're doing with Max's.
they were two totally different situation both very painful but different. they're incomparable.
Liz wanted his friendship and she told him that. He was the one who ended their friendship when he emotionally blackmailed her into not going to Sweden. He caused that isolation himself.
again, she didn't prove him that she really wanted the friendship because you can be friend of someone you believe is responsible of the death of your best friend. it's not what she wanted to do but it's what Max perceived and only in departure she really told him that she didn't want to blame him
before it, Liz didn't even realize how much her words hurt Max and how they were uncalled for. Just like Max didn't realize how much he was hurting her with his behavior and how he refused to see that she was right.
If he loved her half as much as he said he did, I don't believe he would have slept with her. For Max Liz was the woman that he loved ever since he was nine years old. He loved her for eight years and then he just gave up. What happended to she was the only one for him and other such words and declarations.
Liz destroyed the Liz he loved with her words and actions. he had nothing to believe anymore. for him he was the only one who still loved her.
from his pov, what happened to he was the only one for him and other such words and declarations. what happened to "i don't care about normal as long as i'm with you"?
again, he didn't sleep with Tess knowing the truth. he didn't sleep with Tess when Liz loved him and was fidel to him and their love. stop to take it for granted.
Ultimately I feel that all of those romantic moments that they had were lies because
Max felt the same toward Liz from TEOTW to the end.
He was going to spend the rest of his life with Tess. He was willing to do things for her and with her that were permenant.
don't make it seems that he had another choice and he was happy!
he was forced by duty toward the baby and you know it.
M&T weren't a couple, there was nothing real between them. they were created by manipulations and they stayed together for some hours just because of their mistake.
again, even Tess knew that Max still loved and wanted Liz and *she saw it*
if i can be honest, from Max POV and what he knew, Tess deserved his love more than Liz.
again you have to not take for granted things that Max didn't know especially when his reality was another one. everything was the contrary.
That's Liz's selflessness. She thought that's what Max needed and wanted and she didn't want to make him feel guilty about it in HOM and CYN.
that's Max's selflessness too! he thought that she needed to be without him like she herself said.
Liz always wanted to be Max's friend. That was the only thing she had to settle for. See MITC, CYN and others.
at one point she inevitably proved him that she didn't want. her words.
i'm not saying that she was totally wrong.
Two completely different relationships. Sean was no where near as close to Liz as Tess was to Max. Emotionally, physically, spiritually or mentally.
even after Max slept with her and got memories about her he never stopped to love Liz. His heart chose her. even if his Liz wasn't even the real one and he still believed that she did all the things she did to him. again, even Tess knew it.
I believe that. I just believe that Liz loved Max so much that she couldn't bare to share herself emotionally or otherwise with anyone else.
we have to agree to disagree for the reasons i already stated.
Because there were multiple times when Max had the choice to choose Liz but she always came up short.
when?
more than Liz? more than another human being without choice?
where the 'always' here?
only one time in departure and then it's always?
and it's not that he really had a choice, not in the real human world where people are not omnipotent IMO
what you pretended from him?
And it also shows that she didn't.
but again she wasn't into Max's situation and again even if she really was and she didn't it doesn't automatically mean that she loved him more just for that.
You can't be nothing to someone when you love them.
i know but again his Liz wasn't the real one. no one can blame
you wouldn't have blamed Liz in the same situation if Max had done what she did to him in season 2
He also didn't tell her that he didn't love Tess. I think that was a blow to her as well. That Max loved her. While Liz wasn't able to love anyone else but him.
Love and to be in love are two different things. even Tess knew that Max loved Liz and not her (not that she really cared IMO. after all he was supposed to die)
max cared about Tess because she loved and supported him when no one was with him.
Liz loved other people outside Max. she loved Maria, Alex, her parents. when she was dying she saw them too into the summary of her life (while Max saw only her).
But it doesn't mean that Liz was in love with them all.
M&L loved other people (=care) but they were in love with each other only
when Liz made that question Max didn't want her to believe that he was in love with Tess and he loved her in that way. But he couldn't even tell her that he didn't give a damn about Tess especially in that situation. So even if Liz didn't ask about *her* he still wanted her to understand that she was the one he loved that way, no matter what. again, even Tess knew it.
there's no question here and no doubt.
i also believe that he didn't want her to feel sad and responsible of his future unhappiness.(like, you're into this situation because i lied to you)
notice that he smiled at her and he didn't break down until she couldn't see him anymore.
I think it does. Max loved someone else.
so Liz.
but they were in love with each other only
I understand that he didn't think that. However he made himself believe that.
are you kidding me?????????????????????????? how he could?
dear God it really seems that Liz had NO responsibility here!
now Max did everything by himself, even the things he couldn't control!
Liz still cared about him and still wanted to be friends.
so Max.
even after she slept with Kyle and betrayed their love with those words.
He was the one that destroyed their relationship and weakened it to the extent that he felt so alone and isolated.
Liz was the one who did/started to do it even before that episode!
He was the one that put himself in that situation. Not Liz.
Liz ended their relantionship
Liz created that alternative reality where she was bad and betrayed him
don't say that Max did everything by himself because Liz had her own responsibility. he wasn't the one who started that crap, in the first place.
in that episode it was just too late and too bad for him to still fight for something that it really didn't seem real anymore.
Liz still cared for him and that showed even if it wasn't a romantic love. She still loved him.
Max still cared for her and that showed even if it wasn't a romantic love. he still loved her.
She still went to him after Alex's death (that was love), she needed him, she needed his support.
he still wento to her in a roswell xmas carol (that was love and even more than this, like Jason Katims and Jason behr said) he needed her, he needed her support.
She needed him to understand. She needed him to believe in her.
he needed her to understand. he needed her to believe in him and not not accuse him of ruining their life.
I don't see how he overlooked this. It was as plain as day especially in CYN and in MITC.
I don't see how she overlooked this. It was as plain as day especially in Max in the city, a roswell xmas carol, we're a family, to serve and to protect, disturbing behavior, w las vegas....
Who else did she go to in the middle of the night and knock on the window to the room?
who else did he go to in the middle of the xmas night and knock on the door the crashdown?
You completely took what I said out of context. It doesn't mean anything when he was leaving with Tess.
i don't understand
i can't see how Tess could feel loved and could feel devotion if she knew and we knew that Max was unhappy and he was doing what he was doing just because he was forced by duty toward the baby.
What about from Liz's point of view. How do you think she saw it? Bottom line is Max had a wife and a child and he was leaving her. That's what she saw.
what about from Max's POV. how do you think he saw what she did(i'm talking about from TEOTW on)? bottom line is Liz had her normal life, she slept with Kyle (normal guy) dated Sean( normal guy) and she wanted to move on with a normal guy because she didn't want to die for him and she didn't love him enough to accept the danger and sacrifice her safety. everything she said and did in season 1 meant nothing after she discovered that he was a king and he was in danger. that's what he saw
I think I went over this.
me too.
Except that Max didn't need her. He needed Tess.
he didn't need Tess. she was nothing for him, she wasn't the one he was in love with. she was a stranger for him.
he needed *Liz*. his destiny with the blond thing is irrelevant. it doesn't change who he loved and needed.
Atleast that's what all the facts were telling her and she didn't want to impose herself on his destiny.
Max keep on telling and proving her that he didn't care and we know that Liz was starting to understand it. but then FMax changed her plans.
Also it wasn't as if Max went running after her. For all she knew she was doing him a favor.
are you kidding me?????? so i dreamed everything! i dreamed the all the things he said and he did
i will post for you what Ronald Moore said about Max in season 2 especially the beginning
"And then enter Liz. And you know we're playing. One of the great things about season two was playing Max chasing Liz. You know I thought that was a really fun thing. I think it really said a lot about his feeling for her. That he wasn't willing to give it up and that, you know, you were awaiting for for her resolve to weaken and hoping she's gonna go back into his arms."
"I love that! he's a kid! He's a kid, he doesn't care about his "destiny", he's not a captain Kirk. He doesn't care about his unseen planet he just found out about. What he cares about is a very human thing. He cares about this girl. He loves her and she loves him. It's the world to him! That's what it's primary in his mind. And I think that's what the show is about. That's what brings people to this show is this strong love between them"
(Ronald Moore, roswell's producer and writer about the "I'm coming for you Liz" scene- Ask Not commentary)
it seems to me that you're using selective memory (only when it's about Max) you're so angry and prevented toward him and that you see no more than what you want to see.
you totally delete everything Max did like if he never did it. it's like if we're talking about two different people.
so, again, this discussion is totally useless.
Max had Isabel, Tess (the love of his life), Nasedo and Michael. He was in a world where she couldn't exist. She wasn't an alien and she couldn't have helped him. She would have only hurt him and his mission.
i give up.
you should apply on her and her behavior after destiny the same judgment you apply on Max's behavior
Again. Selfless love.
and again, it was like that for Max too not only when it's about Liz!
I guess it's because in the end of it all it was always Max for her. All of her actions are stems of his actions. All of her actions were done for the best of his interests. She always put Max before herself. Always. Always. Always. She always believed in him. Where as the one time where Liz needed Max he was no where to be found. Actually that's not true. He was manhandeling her, screaming at her and then destroying thier friendship.
we will never agree.
again, Max didn't know what you knew. for him the truth was another one. Liz was a bitch for him and she made him believe it.
and for him she always put herself before him. always always always
she didn't believe in him.
Not anymore surreal then what Max asked in TLAV.
the difference is that Liz had evidence and Max didn't tell her that he cheated on her. not to mention that Michael and Isabel experienced it too.
while Liz kept on confirming him what she did and what he saw even when he tried to still believe in her and that what he saw wasn't the truth
he couldn't read her mind.
Totally different motivations. Liz did that to protect him and for his best interests.
but Max didn't know!!!!
i don't care about motivations and what Liz was really doing. since Max didn't know any of this i can't use her motivations against him!
Liz apologized for that and asked for him to believe in her. He didn't.
sorry me but it seems to me that they both indirectly apologized not just liz.
and Max went to her.
Max knew that Liz needed a friend. I would think that would have been enough...
Max needed a friend too and he wasn't omnipotent. also i would think that Liz would think about what Max believed she did to him in order to understand why "maybe" he couldn't still believe in her and enough was enough even for someone like Max.
Willing meaning he wasn't forced.
ok. but it's not that he did it in the best moment of his life or because he really wanted it
he was influenced by too many factors, the bigger one his bad state and his misery
you make it seems that it happened when he was ok and Liz loved him (from his pov) and they really had a chance (from his pov) and he didn't feel the way he felt. you make it seems that he was happy about it when he wasn't and even isabel understood it without so much words. even Tess.
you make it seems that it was the best time of his life when for Max it was the worst mistake of his life.
She also knew that Max "loved" Tess and was leaving the planet with her to start a life with her. Really what did the I Love You do. He was still with Tess. They were only words. It didn't change anything and it's not as if he was going to stay with her. She lost him. All of her greatest fears came true. I mean what comfort could she find in that? miniscule if any. Max knew that Liz still wanted to have a relationship with him even if it was only platonic. I would think that would penatrate threw his head but I guess it wasn't enough.
again, i disagree and i told you why
we just keep on repeat the same things over and over getting on nonewhere.
Liz didn't destroy anything. That was him.
Liz was the one who made him believe that she slept with Kyle and didn't want to be with him anymore, in the first place
*she* created it all. she created the lie, she created the alternative Liz that wasn't the one he loved
he wasn't the one who created it all.
in that moment he finally gave up since he had no reason anymore to still believe, after a year of hopes.
He was the one who ended their friendship when he gave her the ultimatem.
but she was the one who started it all in TEOTW. and after it he still "forgave" her enough to be still friends.
No. He said not the way I love you. Which isn't really an answer. That implies that he loves her but in a different way. He doesn't say that he doesn't love her. He doesn't even answer the question.
i believe that he not only answered to the question she made but he answered to the question she didn't even make.
She ended their relationship in Destiny one time. She didn't end their relationship another time
and what about TEOTW?
again, for Max she did! and she was the one who made him believe it.
an d she confirmed it over and over. ultimately in HOM too.
until season three in Ch-Ch-Changes because she had her breakdown.
Max had his breakdown too after she did what she did to him a year before, but it seems that his feelings are always irrelevant because you take for granted that he knew what you knew and Liz was an heroine for everyone and she didn't hurt him just like he did hurt her when he slept with Tess.
We kind of went threw all of the episodes in season three and confirmed this.
it seems to me that they confirm the contrary
I disagree. She always loved him.
Max too!
even Tess knew it and admitted it.
Always had faith in him. All three of those episodes she pushed him away for other reasons.
Max too
Most of them were for his best interests at heart.
Max too
I think she did the right thing.
and i beg to differ
because this "right thing" destroyed their relantionship
it wasn't only Max's fault.
Especially since Future Max made it clear to her that she couldn't tell Max anything.
when he really told it her?
it doesn't seem to me that he told her what she had to do after that night
and, again, after all sooner or later Liz told Max however and they still were together.
No there is a difference. There is a sympathetic and understandable motivation for a person to do one thing and then there is a just plain old out of character reaction (ala Max). Liz's reactions were all true to her character. They all made sense. Max's just weren't.
i beg to differ.
to me there's no difference because Max was very understandable and sympathetic too especially after the hell he lived and what he believed.
She always loved him and always had faith in him. That's truth.
the same goes for Max. when he did lose his faith he did lose his faith into a Liz that wasn't the real one. a Liz that was a big lie and didn't give him something to have faith for.
But things couldn't be different. Hence the point Helpless.
and so?
i don't understand the point
She couldn't.
why?
in the end she did it however
Yes be with Max, end the world, turn him into a shell of himself because he lost his friends and family by lovign her. She totally had a choice!
That was Liz's choice. Her desicion.
the truth is too important for me especially into a relationship. and Max didn't get it.
no matter what, Liz still had a choice. she could tell him like she did later.
maybe it wasn't a good choice because for the original plan she couldn't do it, but no one can fault her.she couldn't handle alone what she couldn't handle.
It wasn't much of a choice. It would have been selfish for her to jeopardize the future of the world.
it's true. but inevitably she made a choice for Max too because he couldn't know what she was doing and he couldn't be a part of a choice that affected his life as well not only hers. no matter what her reasons were, i don't fault her. but it doesn't change the fact that she did manipulate him and this affected him as a person and his way to see things.
I know. I'm just showing that Liz wasn't a priority for Liz for most of season three.
and i just showed you why she wasn't into 2 episodes and how in the end he chose her over his own son and for her he stopped to search.
Liz wanted Max to be apart of it. Max was still important to her. Ultimately it was Max who ended up pushing her away with the fight.
yes. But Max couldn't be a part of it after she told him that it was his fault!
she didn't mean it but she did.
I guess I am. I like Liz more because I think overall she is just more true.
and i guess that we need to stop this useless discussion then
especially since for me a real Dreamer can't be like that. so i don't want to be rude especially into a board full of Liz's worshipers (= UC fanfictions where she's being whored out to every male thing alive)
sorry, i guess that it's my limit
last thing. i have to say it, sorry if the English isn't always the best. remember that it isn't my mother language. it's hard for me to translate into another language what i really want to say. I'm inevitably limited.