Unpopular Opinions...Round 2

[nibbles2]

Without him you would have never had the Kyle/Liz sex fake out or Max/Tess hooking up.So in my book it's more Max's...well Future Max's....fault than anyones.

And who was pushing Future Max into granolith to go back and change the past? It wasn't Tess, it was Liz.

Max and Liz created a lot of their own problems, there's no doubt that Tess played a part but she wasn't completely to blame. (and neither was Max.)

[jake17]

And who was pushing Future Max into granolith to go back and change the past? It wasn't Tess, it was Liz.

Whoa you are absolutely right nibbles! I never thought of it that way!


great point!

[killjoy]

Without him you would have never had the Kyle/Liz sex fake out or Max/Tess hooking up.So in my book it's more Max's...well Future Max's....fault than anyones.

And who was pushing Future Max into granolith to go back and change the past? It wasn't Tess, it was Liz.

Max and Liz created a lot of their own problems, there's no doubt that Tess played a part but she wasn't completely to blame. (and neither was Max.)

100% agree with you there! Now Carrie I'm not talking about you here.....but nothing gets on my nerves more than the Dreamers who think that Max is perfect and say things like "Why Max would have NEVER slept with Tess of his own free will! She must have mind warped him!" That is the biggest load of horse shit I've ever read on this board.As far as Max knew LIz had cheated on him with Kyle,he was on the rebound and this hot girl(Tess) was offering herself up too him.It doesen't take a person with High IQ to see he jumped on it out of his own free will.

[Cocogurl]

I also hate that the writers had Max sleep with Tess, but I probably could’ve dealt with it more if they had executed it better. Like, they should’ve, in season 3, had Max and Liz really hash out their issues and everything that happened to them in season 2. But instead, they buried pretty much all of it. No discussion about Fmax, no REAL discussion about Max’s relationship with Tess. It was just all gone. And even if they didn’t share their first together, the writers should’ve shown us dreamers a glimpse of Max and Liz sleeping together in the series finale. We were SO owed that! Especially after we had to endure the horror of seeing Max and Tess together!

And more than that I felt like Max should’ve been there for Liz because she was always there for him. Since day one, anytime he’s ever really needed her, she’s come through for him. I’m not saying that he hasn’t been there for her because he has, but the fact that he didn’t believe in her or support her in this when it was so important to her upset me. And if I were Liz, it would’ve ruined some of the trust I had for him. And there was something he said in ITLAITB that I just can’t quite get over. “Even if there was anything remotely alien about this, our cover’s the best defense.” Though Liz didn’t hear that speech, throughout that episode, from Liz’s POV it was like he was choosing to cover his own butt and Michael and Isabel’s rather than help Liz find the person who killed Alex, someone who had always been there for them as well.

And I know and agree with what your saying about Max’s guilt over Alex’s death and why he couldn’t quite believe that his death had anything to do with them. I mean, early in season one, Max showed that he cared about what his life did others around him and how it affected them, especially Liz. So I totally get Max not wanting to believe that Alex’s death had anything to do with them. But at the same time, I think similar guilt may have been a driving force behind Liz’s desire to find out who Alex’s killer was. I mean, if she had never listened to future Max, this never would’ve happened to Alex. I’d feel some guilt about that even though she was only doing what she thought was right.

Cassie! Hello! Ok let me just say I totally agree with you, I"m so happy i'm not alone in this!


About what you said about feeling Max wasn't really 'there' for Liz. I am so right there with you!

You are right, maybe the funeral wasn't the right time to explode with this theory of hers BUT i'm sorry her best friend has just died and what's worse its being concidered a suicide, to know in your heart that Alex would never do that and watch as everyone just blindly accepts it would drive me around the bend a little too..

and do you know what really bothered me too??

What she said is that she believed that an Alien was involved in his death. Now its absolutely obvious that she DID NOT mean Max, Isabel or Michael. I really don't understand why they reacted so angrily towards her.. like she was accusing THEM. which she wasn't ...now like I said, i can see if they would get defensive because they love Alex and to think that the reason for his death might have something to do with Aliens would really upset them... but to get THAT upset with her was uncalled for. it was obviously not directed towards them.

I especially didn't like that Tess took Max's arm and said "lets go" shoving it in liz's face that THEY are together now, and unless Im remembering it wrong she actually says something like people will hear or this a funeral...something to that effect..like she should be sticking her nose in this at all!... ok see i believe this is not a case of jealously but of loyalty. Max and Liz share a bond that is deeper than any friendship. He should've stepped up and been more supportive. She needed him and he walks out the door with Tess on his arm... that really pissed me off.

And it just got worse as time went on... as you so well described above Cassie!

When Liz came to him about evidence that she was finding about leads to possible explanations, he was really not even open to listening to anything so had to say.When she said do you believe that there is a chance that Alex was murdered and he said "no". Wow. gone was that sweet sensitive Max who cared about her so much he wouldve done anything for her, that's for sure. He absolutely should've been there for her, even if he didn't agree with her,

back in season one she had blindly went on faith when she saw him kissing TEss outside on that rainy night, she risked her life not knowing who was inside that house or what would happen to her just to find out the truth and help him.

Even if they weren't together physically in a romantic relationship he owed it to her be there as a friend, and I"m sorry to be more concerned about the welfare of everyone else was just a slap in the face.

it was obvious he was losing control, remember in the hallway at school when she got that phone call from the Swedish embasy talking about helping her with that building.... he phyically grabbed her arm, and she was shocked saying "your hurting me" I swear he did that not to hurt her but he just couldn't handle how Liz was become her own person and making her own choices and she couldn't be pushed into doing what he wanted anymore... I think he had a very hard time with this.

His loss of control over everyone was overwhelming for him I believe, and I think it hit him all at once that he was in fact losing everyone and it was his fault.

I think when you are in that much pain you become desperate to find anything that will numb it.. that will enable you to escape from reality even if its' just for a little while..

It was so blantant when he woke up next to Tess after they slept together that he knew what he had done was very wrong. It was all over his face and later at Kyle's house he was acting all strange.. he knew it, but it was too late..

plus I do agree, having Tess actually pregnant changes everything for Liz, it must be near impossible to accept or understand...very painful..

I truly believe it was the perfect storm, him having all these emotional fights with Michael, Isabel and especially Liz. Feeling completely alone and lost, feeling too that who he was inside was wrong... the 'alien" side..and being sick of feeling that way, worrying about it all the time. And there is Tess, totally accepting him for exactly who his is, expecially his alien side that he has always been ashamed of, plus giving him a feeling that they had this whole other life together and that 'this' isn't really home... that "up there'" is...

please perfect escape, mix in a little mindwarping... and well...yuck!

saying all that I sympathize with him, understand him, because all this is just human reactions and we all have them, we all make mistakes ...we are all weak sometimes.

So yes I agree, he should've been more or at all supportive of LIz and her search for the truth with Alex...definitely!

I also hate that the writers had Max sleep with Tess, but I probably could’ve dealt with it more if they had executed it better. Like, they should’ve, in season 3, had Max and Liz really hash out their issues and everything that happened to them in season 2. But instead, they buried pretty much all of it. No discussion about Fmax, no REAL discussion about Max’s relationship with Tess. It was just all gone. And even if they didn’t share their first together, the writers should’ve shown us dreamers a glimpse of Max and Liz sleeping together in the series finale. We were SO owed that! Especially after we had to endure the horror of seeing Max and Tess together!

OMG OMG CASSIE!!!! i sooooo agree with you!!!!!!!

This was just too stupid for words... i mean they go threw this whole thing for an entire season of Max thinking she slept with kyle and when she FINALLY admits she didn't (by merely nodding i might add ) they just leave it there??? there's no explanation ...nothing??? he doesn't want to know why?? COME ON! She basiclaly ruins them and destroys him and he just accepts her little nod??? that just makes no sense! and she says NOTHING about FMax?? its just left there??? that was one of the main plot lines for season two and they just blow it... just ignore it...
it was careless and a slap in the face to us..

AND Should i even attempt to explain my rage about not showing us the first time they make love???

We wait three freakin years, we endure Tess and all that crap, we patiently wait for them to finally get back to where they love each other and everything is good and ...and ... NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!
Cassie we were so robbed of the one moment we all were dying to see since the very beginning...
and what makes it all that much harder to stomach??? They filmed it!!!!! They actually filmed the making love scene and the ended up cutting it out!

unbelievable!

By the way you explained it very well why Liz probably was upset during the whole FMax scene about the condom... I really see your point, thank you for that.

I guess if a thirty year old Max Evans was telling me that we made love i wouldn't argue.. its hard for me to wrap my head around a 'no' in that situation.

Great comments Cassie!

carrie

You and I must be kindred spirits, Carrie! I totally agree with everything you said. And I absolutely agree with you about Max and Michael and Isabel getting too upset at Liz for suggesting that an alien could've killed Alex. I mean, I get that it was a sore subject and Liz probably brought it up at the wrong time, but they shouldn't have gotten as upset as they did. I mean, come on, it's not the first time the group has been attacked by an alien. I'm guessing it's because this is the first time an alien has attacked and actually killed one of their own that made them so resistant to believing it. But they shouldn't have gotten so upset at her.

And I'm glad I was able to give you an explanation for why Liz was freaking out at future Max. I was so worried it wouldn't make sense since I was, at the time, trying not to pass out on my computer as I was typing. I hate staying up so late, but I get some of my best writing done at night.

Also, KJ, I agree with what you said. It's perfectly possible for Max to have slept with Tess of his own free will, especially with the way his mindset was at the time. He was hurting and looking for instant gratification and Tess was there for him.

However, if Liz had really slept with Kyle, you couldn't really call that cheating either. She broke up with Max, she told him over and over that it was over between them. If he didn't listen, that's his too bad, not hers.

[Coccy]

i know that I am going to get KILLED for saying this but, its how I truly feel...

keep in mind that I am a die hard dreamer, and I am obsessed with Max, and I only want Max and Liz together...and I was totally sick to my stomach when Tess and Max slept together and believe it was one of the biggest mistakes the writers made...
(...)

No stoning from me. I totally agree with your post (and i'm a die hard Dreamer too )

Yes Carrie I love how the first instinct for a Dreamer is to blame everything on Tess Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that tv canon Tess was an angel or good or anything like that.Nope what I am saying is that Dreamers LOVE to scream "It's Tess's fault!" at everything when they should blame Future Max!

Without him you would have never had the Kyle/Liz sex fake out or Max/Tess hooking up.So in my book it's more Max's...well Future Max's....fault than anyones.

yes but without Tess being so selfish and obsessed about destiny and getting the toy (aka Max) FMax wouldn't have the need to do that (give her the toy in order to make her stay in roswell), in the first place.
She created a subtle blackmail there. You want me to help the royal four? Then i have to get Max. No? then i leave you all!
The real purpose of the royal four (if any) was to be a group. Who dated who was irrelevant (apparently it was useless even for the reproduction part since M&T baby was totally human and got rejected as the heir) but she just couldn't accept that Max didn't want her so she left them and their purpose. This was the real problem.
If she had actually really cared about their purpose she wouldn't have left roswell regardless if Max wasn't so nice with her (it's difficult to be friends with someone who doesn't respect your feelings and always tries to "teach" you about who you should love, anyway.)
Of course in the end, knowing what we know now about the deal, it makes sense that she didn't care about their real purpose and only wanted to get in Max' pants. Of course she didn't care about the group, she was actually working for Kivar. But this is something that neither FMax nor FLiz could know. He couldn't know that she left roswell because, basically, her plan failed.
Don't get me wrong, i don't approve FMax or that storyline. To me FMax was stupid. Martyr complex.
But i could still understand him.. in his timeline everyone he cared about was dying or died. I think that when he used the granolith he knew that his Liz basically died not too long after he was gone. He just wanted to save the ones he loved, he was desperate and when you're desperate you can make stupid choices and him and FLiz sacrificed their selves for Tess, in order to make her stay, in order to get her help they wanted to give her the "toy". It's stupid but it's still based on a selfless action and huge desperation that only the end of the world can create. Sometimes being too selfless can be flaw too just like being selfish.
Point is FMax was a "selfless" stupid. While Tess was a "selfish" stupid.

now i know that dreamers and stargazers and any other fan who hate Tess can be biased but Tess fans are no less.
One thing that i always disagreed with is that she was the one who cared about Antar and poor people in danger there while Max and the others didn't give a damn and were mean and "selfish". That's not true. It's not what the canon actually showed and i'm not even talking about departure and the whole killing Alex thing, that was only the last clue.
But get real, in the canon she cared only about Max, that was the only "destiny" she cared about. Their purpose as a group was used by her as a pretext in order to make it seems that he HAD to be with her like if he couldn't be the king and help the antarians without her (that is totally fake. He was the king and he was considered one with or without her. Actually he was the only one who had a royal seal inside him, that is very telling for me. The queen didn't even get a chair at the summit in new york, assuming that they acknowledged her presence there, in the first place.) she never cared about those supposed people in danger. She never talked about them....heck she worked for the enemy that they were supposed to fight against! Yet people transform her into this heroine who wanted to save antar while Max, Michael and Isabel were playing teenagers, apparently. I don't get it.

100% agree with you there! Now Carrie I'm not talking about you here.....but nothing gets on my nerves more than the Dreamers who think that Max is perfect and say things like "Why Max would have NEVER slept with Tess of his own free will! She must have mind warped him!" That is the biggest load of horse shit I've ever read on this board.As far as Max knew LIz had cheated on him with Kyle,he was on the rebound and this hot girl(Tess) was offering herself up too him.It doesen't take a person with High IQ to see he jumped on it out of his own free will.

i agree on the part "Why Max would have NEVER slept with Tess of his own free will! She must have mind warped him!" that is totally stupid for me too. It was free will. He did what he wanted to do in that moment and it was his responsibility just like hers. Like Max himself said it was the worst mistake of his life and he had to live with it everyday.
however Tess wasn't innocent and it doesn't take a person with High IQ to see that she totally took advantage of the situation and manipulated him and his feelings when he was a mess and lonely. She wanted the boy and tried to get him no matter if he was in a bad state, and she knew it, no matter if she knew perfectly what were his feelings for her.. for everything. You don't even need an alien girl and powers in order to do that... if figures her (the one who used Alex like a puppet and made him do what she wanted him to do.)


The thing is... I agree that we should not make the others totally victims when it's about her and we shouldn't blame everything on her but i also think that by doing that we shouldn't devalue her real responsibilities and make her the victim like if the fans are too hard on her for no reason... like if she couldn't actually do certain things.

[killjoy]

Ohh I've never tried to claim tv Tess was innocent or without blame.I do however think she was one of the most conflicted true to life characters from the show.She was taken at 'birth' and raised by an evil man who brainwashed her to what he thought was 'right and wrong'.How many stories have we heard about where kidnapped children,women or people were taken and later came back different due to their captors brainwashing them into believing things?

Still my major complaint is Dreamer fiction writers who can't let go of the hate when doing AU stories and have her still as some evil,jealous harpy.For example....there is a video over on Youtube,the person made a Lost video using the Roswell theme music.Even though Emilie de Ravin is ON Lost the person making the video left her off.When feedbackers called him/her on it this person stated "This is my video I'll put whoever I want on here....and besides I HATE Tess!"

Those are the type of Dreamers that get on my nerves

[jake17]

i agree on the part "Why Max would have NEVER slept with Tess of his own free will! She must have mind warped him!" that is totally stupid for me too. It was free will. He did what he wanted to do in that moment and it was his responsibility just like hers. Like Max himself said it was the worst mistake of his life and he had to live with it everyday.
however Tess wasn't innocent and it doesn't take a person with High IQ to see that she totally took advantage of the situation and manipulated him and his feelings when he was a mess and lonely. She wanted the boy and tried to get him no matter if he was in a bad state, and she knew it, no matter if she knew perfectly what were his feelings for her.. for everything

So well put Coccy!

I can't believe you're here responding to my post! I'm not sure if you'll remember this but we used to defend Max and Liz on IMBD! This was a long time ago...I'm thinking four year ago?

My user name was frozenpea, we agreed on everything, especially our devotion to the relationship of Max and LIz!

anyway it's great seeing you here and so ironic that we still agree after all these years!

Carrie

[Coccy]

Ohh I've never tried to claim tv Tess was innocent or without blame.I do however think she was one of the most conflicted true to life characters from the show.She was taken at 'birth' and raised by an evil man who brainwashed her to what he thought was 'right and wrong'.How many stories have we heard about where kidnapped children,women or people were taken and later came back different due to their captors brainwashing them into believing things?

i'm the first one who always say that Nacedo is the one that we should blame the most
However we can't use Nacedo as a pretext in order to justify all her actions especially when by the time Tess worked for the deal he was dead since a year (and we don't even know what he actually wanted to do because he didn't get the chance to tell us his POV). She is the only one who really worked for the deal and she did it when "Nacedo's influence" couldn't be there. She did it when she found a "family" at the Valenti's, people who genuinely cared about her.
The point is yes brainwashing exists and kids can be influenced by other people . But we choose who we want to be. Always. She got the chance to "change" and she made her choice.
We can find tons of stories about kidnapped children who got abused/brainwashed in real life too but not all of them became bad adults. It's so complex, never black or white. I think that our personalities are the result of many things combined together but our real disposition is always mainly one.

Still my major complaint is Dreamer fiction writers who can't let go of the hate when doing AU stories and have her still as some evil,jealous harpy.

i sense a deja vu here
alternative universe fanfictions doesn't mean that you are forced to completely change the canon. Is that a new rule? Just saying
It's like saying that dreamers or CC fans in general can't let go of the love when doing AU stories and have their characters still good like in the canon. DUH! (oh wait, i actually read that one too! LOL)

Bad Tess is canon so it makes sense that people write her in character in their fanfictions just like they do with the other characters. I even think that if well written she can be more interesting than her good version that some people write. She can be bad like in the canon but she can still have some layers (like in the canon). It depends.
It surely makes way more sense for me than the rebels, for example, who transform Tess into a mary-sue Liz's clone and turn Liz into the evil sl*t one .. and not only in the AU fanfictions but the regular "canon" too.
Same goes for non dreamer ff where Max is a rapist or evil. That doesn't make really sense for me.
All the fans are biased but at least "bad Tess" is still canon and technically you're only using something that was created by the original writers too. Personally i find more biased the ones who makes her totally good or the ones who turn originary good characters into evil incarnates.

Anyway, If i don't like rebel i don't read their fanfictions expecting to "get" some positive dreamer scenes from the author.
This makes me remember a Tess fan who commented one of my dreamer icon posts telling me that she hated M&L but she wanted me to make some icons or fanarts about Tess. so sweet.
Honestly I find it a bit hypocritical that non Dreamer fans who obviously don't like the couple and the characters still read dreamer fanfictions hoping that the authors can write something positive about what they like. It's rude too
This is what i sense when i read some comments here. Like if the Dreamers cannot have their opinions about the characters and they're always supposed to write something nice for every fan even the ones who don't care about their fav couple. Dreamer is a shipper too just like the others and we should have the right to dislike or like what we want just like the other shippers.
It seems to me that if a candy hates Liz, for example, everything is ok. While if a dreamer dislikes Maria it's scandalous.
heck the dreamers can't even dislike Tess!
the never-ending double standard.

For example....there is a video over on Youtube,the person made a Lost video using the Roswell theme music.Even though Emilie de Ravin is ON Lost the person making the video left her off.When feedbackers called him/her on it this person stated "This is my video I'll put whoever I want on here....and besides I HATE Tess!"

Those are the type of Dreamers that get on my nerves

how do you know that the person was Dreamer?
someone hate Tess= automatically dreamer!
We Dreamers don't have the "copyright" when it's about disliking Tess you know...
I'm a fan of lost and i've read many of those "I hated Tess" comments in the boards and many of them were made by candies or non dreamer fans.. even people who hated Max and Liz. Just saying. (i think that most of the time it's ironical, btw. You should read the comments about Emilie made by some Twilight fans. )

anyway i read the same comments about Shiri now that she's Cate on Life unexpected. People who hated Liz and hate Shiri just for that. I agree that it's very stupid but I guess that it's common.
But personally i always like honesty more than people who pretends to not hate someone/something (so they don't seem biased ) when it's pretty obvious that they do.

i agree on the part "Why Max would have NEVER slept with Tess of his own free will! She must have mind warped him!" that is totally stupid for me too. It was free will. He did what he wanted to do in that moment and it was his responsibility just like hers. Like Max himself said it was the worst mistake of his life and he had to live with it everyday.
however Tess wasn't innocent and it doesn't take a person with High IQ to see that she totally took advantage of the situation and manipulated him and his feelings when he was a mess and lonely. She wanted the boy and tried to get him no matter if he was in a bad state, and she knew it, no matter if she knew perfectly what were his feelings for her.. for everything

So well put Coccy!

I can't believe you're here responding to my post! I'm not sure if you'll remember this but we used to defend Max and Liz on IMBD! This was a long time ago...I'm thinking four year ago?

My user name was frozenpea, we agreed on everything, especially our devotion to the relationship of Max and LIz!

anyway it's great seeing you here and so ironic that we still agree after all these years!

Carrie

really?
nice to "see" you again here then

[killjoy]

Wished they hadn't killed Courtney off and so we could have seen more of her and Michael in season three when Maria broke up with him.

Wished to have seen some more Sean/Liz stuff.

[jake17]

Wished they hadn't killed Courtney off and so we could have seen more of her and Michael in season three when Maria broke up with him.

i have to say, I think I'm one of the few but i really didn't like Courtney at all, she just felt like such an ousider to our little group, the only scene I really thought she did a good job was when Michael and Maria caught her in his apartment and she explained why she was there and his back story on Antar.. other than that I was glad to see her go...

Wished to have seen some more Sean/Liz stuff.

As for Sean and Liz, well although it gave me the willies to even see them together, (we wont even speak of the kisses, urgh! )

I do have to admit I loved the whole theme surrounding them how Liz should feel free to "grow" and that's not a bad thing... although the prom night made my physically ill, with Tess and Max kissing I have to say the scene in the bowling alley when she was sliding down the lane in her dress, laughing looking so ...free...well that was pretty awesome...the whole speech was really amazing and gave me the chills... they really did a good job with that...

i don't think he was all that bad, and I did like how he saw her and made her see herself in a different perspective, it was sweet how he took the fall for breaking in the school, and I have to say after everything that happened with Tess and Max I did crack a little smile when Max walked in on Sean tickling her and LIz laughing hysterically acting so carefree and happy... how she got up looking all guilty and nervous while Max just stood there was kind of priceless... yeah that was very cool... but in the end I will always want Max and Liz together, its' how it was meant to be...for me at least...

I just cannot see Liz and Sean in a romantic way...but that is just probably me.


Carrie