Things that made you want to bang your head against anything

[juliecollard87]

Really? I think there's an equal amount of (if not more) Liz lovers on this board. They crucify Max for his mistakes, but then gloss over or dismiss Liz's.

I would just like to point out I don’t think Liz ever really made a massive mistake like Max did. Max even said in ch-ch-changes that Liz had never made a mistake since she found out about them.

I understand why Max went to Tess. Liz was shutting him out; to Max Liz had moved on with Sean. So shouldn’t he move on granted maybe having sex with her without a condom was stupid but heck maybe he didn’t think they would work they aren’t human after all.

We all know Max loved Liz. I never saw Max having sex with Tess as cheating on Liz because they had not been together for almost a year. “Cheated on their love” uhh I’m sorry was he just supposed to sit at home a pine for her when she wouldn’t even give him the time of day. I just feel like Max was just being a normal teenage boy for once thinking with the wrong head.

[Sin]

but Max still had choices and he chose a very childish and self-destructive path. He didn't try to work out the problems he was having with Isabel or Liz. He closed his eyes to the possibility that Alex was murdered. He didn't try to talk to Michael or Maria for some insight, he listened only to Tess who was telling him he was right and to screw everyone else.

To me this shows a very fundamental character flaw. Is this the type of guy you want for a savior of your planet who is stubborn to the point of self-destruction and surrounds himself with 'yes' men? The Max from season 1 was much better than that.

but the whole Max/Tess storyline just seem completely out of character to me. Where is the Max that always tried to do the right thing? Where was the Max with the condom in his pocket? Max the planner? Max who fundamentally loved Liz? Max who would do anything to protect the people he loved? Max who risked his life for love? The reason I was so upset with the Max/Tess storyline is it just wasn't the Max we knew and loved. He never would have threatened his sister and certainly wouldn't have had a one night stand with someone he didn't love.

It is also one of the reasons I hated season three so much. Other than the fact that the storylines sucked, Max was a completely different person. He was still that asshat who so casually slept with Tess and abandoned his friends and family.

I think this pretty much says volumes, as to how people feel about that Max/Tess/Liz triangle. I don't really think it's the matter of just sex but the fact that the core part of Max's character was changed and destroyed for plot purposes. It doesn't make sense going by what we have been shown and for who we know Max to be as a character. I feel the majority of viewers loved Max's character so it makes sense that when he isn't himself and he isn't acting like the character we all know, love and are fans of that we would start disliking him from deviating from the character we know him to be. If Max was a character that was casual about sex, was occasionally a jerk to those he loved, was self-centered and didn't care about what other people were going through I don't think his actions in the episode in question would have been a big deal, as that would have been old hat at this point.

But Max wasn't like that and when you change a character so completely within such a small window of time (1 episode) and expect people to understand things that are making no sense then you will usually find that the fans aren't going to be as sympathetic to a character who they don't even recognize and that is the sole fault of the writers. They knew that they couldn't write the things they wrote and keep the characters in character but they did it anyway because they were more concerned with plot driven storylines then character driven ones.

You are completely right the Max who we know is so much better then what he was reduced to at the tale end of season two. To the point in which he is nearly unrecognizable as a character at that point. It's the jump shark moment, the moment where Max evens seems to cease to exist because we all know the character of Max Evans would never have done this.

“Cheated on their love” uhh I’m sorry was he just supposed to sit at home a pine for her when she wouldn’t even give him the time of day. I just feel like Max was just being a normal teenage boy for once thinking with the wrong head.

If Max was a person who was careless about sex or a person who felt that sex didn't mean anything I think I could end up agreeing with you. But Max wasn't that guy. He never was. The man never even dated anyone else before Liz because all he wanted was her. This pretty much means that for eight or nine years Max didn't want anyone else but Liz. This was expressed by Max himself and by the writers. He only ever wanted Liz in those ways.

So basically in order to make the actions Max did at the end of season two even remotely possible you have to retool the entire fabric of the person who Max is to even make this plausible. You have to completely through away and undo the 8-9 years of devotion to Liz Parker (most of this time he didn't even know her) and you also have to deny that she was the only person he wanted, the only person he would have done anything for, the only person he could see himself being with in order to get to the point where Max readily sleeps with Tess and even then it doesn't even seem like he would sleep with Tess even then. Because even if Liz and him were done, Tess is a complete stranger to him and he has no clue who she even is because he hasn't gotten to know her. So how could the Max we know who was never fast with physical relationships sleep with her, when he didn't even know who she was and didn't want to get involved with her?

For Max's entire life he only wanted Liz and saw no one else, he wanted no other, dated no other and never wanted to. So we jump from that to him hooking up with Tess and sleeping with her unprotected in the span of a couple of episodes? That doesn't sound like Max and I don't think it has anything to do with my dreamer or Liz bias. This just doesn't mesh with the character of Max whom we have come to know. And the reasons that they gave never made sense either. "she was like me and I wanted to know" or "I am over it now because I was attracted to the alien side of me" It's a complete joke because the writers couldn't think up of a viable reason to have Max actually sleep with her so they ignored that portion of the story all together it seemed.

Max was never perfect but this was completely out of character for him to do. I can understand him kissing Tess in HOM. He was curious, confused and hurt. But to have him sleep with her? Yeah that's not a Max like action at all. Especially since he never wanted to be with her. Even as far back as Crazy. So to have him go a complete 180 with Tess never made sense to me, and I am guessing to many others as well here.

It simply doesn't mesh with the character whom we have come to know. His behavior is completely unrecognizable as Max in the two episodes before Departure. As to the normal boy comment. Max was never really a normal guy. I mean who would say on the first day of third grade that they found the person they wanted to spend the rest of their life with?

[RoswellOracle]

I understand why Max went to Tess. Liz was shutting him out; to Max Liz had moved on with Sean. So shouldn’t he move on granted maybe having sex with her without a condom was stupid but heck maybe he didn’t think they would work they aren’t human after all.

We all know Max loved Liz. I never saw Max having sex with Tess as cheating on Liz because they had not been together for almost a year. “Cheated on their love” uhh I’m sorry was he just supposed to sit at home a pine for her when she wouldn’t even give him the time of day.

To me it's not so much that he cheated on Liz, but he sold his own soul. He gave away his self respect, his values, and his self worth, when he had meaningless sex, and that is just not the Max we knew.

As for sitting at home pining, then yes I think he would. at least for a while. It's what he had always done before when he couldn't be with Liz.

He loved Liz all of his life and maybe it got to a point where it seemed like things were impossible to him, and they would never be together, but I still don't see him turning to Tess that quickly. He was so uncomfortable just kissing Tess, and afterward he didn't even want to discuss it. Then they sleep together? It just is not plausable to me.

[Sin]

To me it's not so much that he cheated on Liz, but he sold his own soul. He gave away his self respect, his values, and his self worth, when he had meaningless sex, and that is just not the Max we knew.

As for sitting at home pining, then yes I think he would. at least for a while. It's what he had always done before when he couldn't be with Liz.

He loved Liz all of his life and maybe it got to a point where it seemed like things were impossible to him, and they would never be together, but I still don't see him turning to Tess that quickly. He was so uncomfortable just kissing Tess, and afterward he didn't even want to discuss it. Then they sleep together? It just is not plausible to me.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel for the most part just said in much more concise words. The nail is pretty much hit on the head. With that action the writers were saying that Max was this incredibly weak person who held none of the values and character of whom the audience was invested in for seasons and how could we even begin to love Max again if we didn't recognize him, understand him, or respect him anymore? I think this was why people were upset the character that they have loved for so long was changed at the last minute to fulfill a meaningless story line that wasn't worth the change and loss of a character we loved, admired and rooted for.

It made everything else that was faced later on seem pyrrhic.

The Tess/Max sex is a multi-faceted problem that's a slap in the face on so many fronts and I think the fan reactions about the storyline are valid, and I think there's a reason why there are still divides even a decade later after the fact.

[juliecollard87]

Yes Max having sex with Tess was purely to drive the plot.

If we look at this from Max’s point of view take away everything we know about Tess. Liz has moved on and had sex with Kyle and is very close to Sean. I feel like Max did pine for Liz for a long time he tried to get her back but she wasn’t giving in. Maybe he left like Liz saw their love as nothing. It just never felt to me Max thought about Tess sexually it just happened that night. Of course he still loved Liz but you can have sex with someone and still be in love with someone else.

I liked Tess and I still do her character was so interesting and had so many angles. Even after 1 and a half season so much about her is such a mystery. I always felt that by having her kill Alex was such a cop out; way for them to get her off the show mainly for dreamers I think. I just have such a hard time believing she was just evil if she was she could have just played with Max’s mind to get him to sleep with her. Also with Alex why wouldn’t she just ask him to decode the book I mean Alex would have done anything for Isabel to find home.

[Coccy]

way for them to get her off the show mainly for dreamers I think.

so let me understand, basically in order to please us they suddenly placed M&T together and destroyed even Kyle/Tess that were liked by the dreamers too?
It doesn't make sense to me. This idea that the writers wanted to please the dreamers. If they had wanted to do it then they wouldn't have created TEOTW in the first place, they wouldn't keep M&L apart for the whole year/season and they wouldn't suddenly put M&T together for one episode creating that stupid teen pregnancy soap opera.
My problem with the "please the dreamers" logic is that it doesn't make sense (i honestly also find the idea that the writers write their show according to what the fans want very naive and not realistic. ), it doesn't fit with what i saw. Unless the writers were crazy or sadistic. But you don't please people by pissing them off
Ronald Moore and Jason Katims said more than once that the end of the season is an episode arc (and it was already obvious IMO even without them specifying it) this means that by the time Max slept with Tess they already decided and planned that she was Alex's killer (that is what they said). Heck that was the reason of why he slept with her, in the first place. The two things are created in the same moment. They made their decision to make her evil after viva las vegas and it makes sense because until that episode it seemed that M&L were getting back together and Tess didn't care about Max and destiny anymore, they had no interactions. And she was more close to Kyle than her alien family. In one of the commentaries in the dvds they even explained why they liked the idea of K&T together. Then they suddenly made her obsessed about antar all over again and they suddenly said that Kyle saw her like a sister (how convenient .... i have to give me a break... He wanted to have sex with her. Plain and simple. I could have believed the sister thing if the writers made it believable but it was obvious that they forced it to get rid of their potential as a couple. Honestly Max and Tess seemed more siblings than Kyle and Tess. At least Kyle showed some sort of physical attraction for her and viceversa and they had some unresolved sexual tension especially in TEOTW not to mention the stares in the xmas episode and the favorite martian scene. )
The point is even if they had wanted to please the dreamers until viva las vegas they were doing just fine and basically making almost everyone happy. They had no reason to get rid of Tess. Surely she was still disliked by many but it's undeniable that her relationship with Kyle made people like her and frankly she wasn't such an obstacle for Max and Liz. I saw better triangles, that one wasn't a real triangle. Max was never torn between the two. It was obvious that Max still loved Liz and was pining for her. It was only a matter of finally telling him the truth. In fact that was what Liz was supposed to do, originally. In Viva Las Vegas she almost did it. It could make sense that they would talk after that otherwise why create the scene where Max saw their wedding? What's the purpose?
But the writers changed their mind because they wanted him to be miserable so he could sleep with Tess and they could get their little soap opera where Tess was evil. So they forced the fact that even after Alex died Liz didn't tell him the truth. No wonder why they didn't make her tell him and even almost pretended that the lie about FMax didn't exist.
They needed to make her "the bad guy" in his eyes, it was just too convenient. They knew that if Max had know the truth nothing of what happened could have happened. It's already forced with him not knowing the truth (and i'm one of those who understand him and why he slept with Tess) it figures if he knew.

People always talk about how evil Tess didn't make sense yet no one notice all the nonsense and forced things that were created way before that. Of course i don't expect most of Tess fans to see it especially the ones that wanted her to be with Max no matter how and why it happened. Of course we're all biased including the ones who simply hated M&L and didn't care about what was happening to them as long as they were apart and the characters they loved could get more space in the show.


Frankly i think that the writers didn't give a damn about the shippers (and funny enough Ronald Moore even admitted it), they didn't care about what we wanted to see. We make the shippers. They make a show. A show with couples but mainly a show with a general plot. They knew how it begins and they knew how it ends.
Max and Liz are the heart and soul of the show and it was obvious that sooner or later they would put them together again. But In the mean time they used them to create drama... that's what all the shows do.
I don't even resent them for it, maybe because new tv-shows are worse or maybe just because i simply believe that it's realistic. A writer can only create his story, people can like it or hate it but he can't please everyone. No story can please everyone.

Regardless what the fans thought about Tess, Katims always liked the idea that Tess was evil (reason of why they never really developed her character too much, they always kept her mysterious so they could do what they wanted with her) and he ultimately made like that using Max, Liz and Alex in the process. No more no less. They also destroyed Kyle/Tess firstly by making them brother and sister from nonewhere and then by making her manipulate him when Alex died. They had no reason to do that if they wanted to please the fans. They only pissed off people with their decisions, all the fans.
It seems to me for the that the writers wanted people to hate her.
Beside, Katims always liked this kind of enemy (the hidden ones) more than the more obvious ones like the skins or Kivar that in fact he never really developed so much. Notice that the best enemies in the show were all "moles": Pierce, Nacedo, Vanessa Whitaker, Courtney, Tess. Even Toposky is kinda like that although she ultimately was good. and what about the sheriff? Even Jim Valenti was developed using this "style" (i mean that they firstly made it seems that he was an enemy and then he ultimately wasn't. The point is that Katims&Co liked to developed characters like that, to play with their real intentions and the fact that people aren't always like they seem.)

I just have such a hard time believing she was just evil if she was she could have just played with Max’s mind to get him to sleep with her.

i don't think that she was able to do that. Lets be realistic even if she mindwarped him making him believe that she was Liz, for example, sooner or later he would realize that something was wrong and she would be in trouble.
Tess needed his trust too. She needed him to leave the planet with her. She didn't just need to get pregnant from him.
Also i think that her ability to mindwarp him was limited because back in the first season he realized it when she was playing with his mind. Of course she still mindwarped him (see when he believed that the baby was sick) but putting images in his mind is a thing .... making him sleep with her is another.. it was too much even for her IMO
It's also true that Tess was able to make people do what she wanted, see what she did to Alex. It's always hard to understand what is real or not with her. I still think that she manipulated Max to a degree (and you don't need to be alien to do that. Even if she just took advantage of his sadness it's still a manipulation for me) but it was more subtle she couldn't use him like a puppet.
I also think that she couldn't take the risk that Max would realize what she was really doing. She also knew what happened with Alex and how he remembered it all after a while. It makes sense for me that she didn't want to take the risk with Max.


Beside, Tess could be even considered naive, delusional and pathetic when it's about Max and many other things but i believe that although she didn't love him a part of her wanted him to love her.. she still had a bit of pride. She already had to "endure" all the flashes of Liz when she was with him i don't think that she liked the idea of getting him just because he believed that she was Liz or because he was incapable of thinking/drugged.. She wanted to get the boy.
Even if he was supposed to die anyway it was a matter of principle for her. She desperately wanted him to love her like he loved the "stupid human girl". The scene from departure and what she said only confirms me this idea. The simple fact that he never stopped to love Liz and never felt the same for her.. oh she hated it immensely and she showed it, she resented him. His feelings.... she couldn't understand them. It also was the ultimate proof for her that there're things that she just can't change no matter what she do, no matter her powers.

Also with Alex why wouldn’t she just ask him to decode the book I mean Alex would have done anything for Isabel to find home.

to me it made perfect sense that she chose to manipulate him instead of asking him to help her.
Firstly Tess wasn't someone who trusted people especially not the humans. She didn't have the best opinion of the humans and she didn't consider herself one. She didn't really trust Max, Michael and Isabel and even Kyle you can't expect her to trust Alex.
I don't think that she even considered the idea that he could have helped her without being manipulated. You think it because you know Alex and because we humans are accustomed to this kind of reasoning. But Tess wasn't human. and it's not only a matter of personality. Kyle was nice with her but some months with the humans couldn't delete 10 years without any human connection
Beside, Katims once said that the powers of the aliens did fit with their personalities.. it's true. She has a manipulative personality and she likes to get what she wants without asking.
She knew that Alex loved Isabel and most likely he didn't want her to leave earth. Beside, by manipulating him she could make him work for her full time instead of having to await when he wanted to do it or could do it.

Then, you forget that Tess was working for the enemy so obviously she didn't want Max&Co to know what she was doing.
she even said it in departure, basically she killed Alex because she couldn't take the risk that he would tell the others about what she was doing (and I don't think that Alex knew about the deal too). She didn't kill him because she wanted to kill him but If you think about it she could have asked Max to heal him like he did with Brody instead she chose to mindwarp him over and over until she ultimately killed him and it was too late for Max to save him. I find it hard to believe that she didn't really realize what she was doing. Alex was really bad that night. To me it makes perfect sense that she was hiding what she was doing. She was plotting against them, she needed their trust. She also knew that they didn't want to go home she couldn't take the risk to make them suspicious about her.
Instead it makes more sense that she mindwarped Max about his son so he had to choose to go home.

Also i always thought that she needed to keep the translation a secret because she didn't know what was really written there so if she was the only one who knew about it while Alex was translating it then she could have full control of it.
That way if something not convenient for her was written in the book she could have easily change the translation of that part.

see i think that she had plenty of reasons to make it a secret, apart from the obvious one.


about the Max/Liz discussion (again) i already said everything i needed to say and more in the other thread about Tess. It's exhausting LOL.
So this time i just want to say that i agree with Jake17 and Rowedog

killjoy i honestly don't know what you're talking about ...definitely what you wrote is not what i see especially not here. It's more the contrary. Although i also post at the fanforum, livejournal and in other boards and most of the dreamers there side with both of them.
Unless you aren't talking about the dreamers. In that case you could be right because I noticed a trend in some non dreamers (and some Max/Maria fans) that hate Liz and use FMax as a pretext in order to bash her and make it seems that she didn't care about Max.. totally putting things out of context for the sake to bash her and make it seems that she was bad and didn't deserve him (especially when people want him to be with another girl) Because you know the other female characters were all angels *put sarcasm here* i have to laugh when Liz is called selfish or self-centered.
anyway it's like for the Max's bashing/double standard especially in Liz-uc ff, it's just less popular. IMO

And frankly, while it did suck and hurt and all that stuff, I often feel like it's been blown way out of proportion. One mistake and one stupid action shouldn't define a character and it grates when people can't see past it to all the other wonderful things he said or did that truly showed who he was.

AMEN.

[Sin]

It just never felt to me Max thought about Tess sexually it just happened that night.

I don't think that it was in Max's character to sleep with her especially in the context that the show provided for him. Max just isn't that guy, so forcing him into a mold - into an action that isn't him has never made sense. I think that's what it boils down to.

I liked Tess

I didn't and it has little to do with the fact that I am a Liz/Max shipper but just because I find her to be such a reprehensible character. She reminds me a lot of Faith from Buffy and I couldn't stand her either.

I always felt that by having her kill Alex was such a cop out; way for them to get her off the show mainly for dreamers I think.

Tess was always a morally questionable character, she always had evil tendencies. I mean just look at her first episodes. The first thing she does is seek out Isabel and Max and start manipulating them with mind-warps and mind-tricks, she never even gives them a choice or give them a chance to react to her. The funny thing is that they probably would have embraced her with open arms had she just revealed herself to them naturally and just told them who she was. But Tess wanted to control them, manipulate them and force them to accept and embrace her on her time and her circumstances. She didn't care at all how Max or Isabel felt regarding everything. She just uses her powers to force them into doing things that they were not comfortable doing. I always found the salt/sugar cube thing and the resulting midwarps to be just plain cruel especially considering how Isabel was so distraught by them. I mean the scene in the rain with Max just speaks volumes of her character right there. Max is extremely upset being forced to kiss Tess in the rain, but she doesn't care she wants what she wants and doesn't care how it affects others.

Even if you take Liz/Max out of the equation Tess never fit because she was always an outsider, not because the group made her one but because she made herself one. She didn't like any of the humans, she saw them all as means to an end, the only human she showed mild affection for was Kyle and in the end she used him to. Tess didn't want to be friends with the group, she never wanted to be apart of them. She could care less about Kyle (4 AAAB, Departure, HOM), she could careless about what happened to Alex (Departure) the funny thing about all of this is that if Tess had simply asked Alex to translate the book for her he probably would have, it was obviously an important document to the aliens and I don't see Alex turning down a chance to help the group. Tess didn't like Maria and we all know she despised Liz. etc.

Even in her alien group she never meshed well with any of them because she only cared about Max. She didn't even try to get close to Michael or create friendships with any of them. She ignored Michael and Isabel all the time and just stalked Max whenever she could. So she had no ties to the group because she didn't want to be apart of them. So I don't really think it's impossible to see her as a betrayer. Tess wanted what she wanted and to hell with anyone who got in her way. She didn't care about anyone but herself.

[juliecollard87]

I never said that the whole Tess/Max/Baby thing was for dreamers but in all good tv shows there is a huge obstacle that comes between the “main” couple. What is a bigger story line than Tess having a baby but in the end you know that the main couple is still going to end up together. I think Tess was pushed off the show because most people just hated her.

I’m sorry but Max was attracted to Tess who wouldn’t be she is hot. It doesn’t take away what he felt for Liz but he found her attractive. That’s why I could see that he slept with her because he did like her and he did have feelings. He just didn’t feel like he did for Liz. I also don’t think it meant nothing to him because he was excited to see her the next day. I am not saying he loved her more than Liz.

I understand where ya’ll are coming from I just don’t feel the same way. Its one of the things I love so much about roswell how much people are invested into these couples which is why we have the best fan fiction.

[Earth2Mama]

I’m sorry but Max was attracted to Tess who wouldn’t be she is hot. It doesn’t take away what he felt for Liz but he found her attractive. That’s why I could see that he slept with her because he did like her and he did have feelings. He just didn’t feel like he did for Liz. I also don’t think it meant nothing to him because he was excited to see her the next day. I am not saying he loved her more than Liz.

O.k. I'm just gonna jump in here to say ...


Where the hell did you see that?!


The next day he was "excited" to see her? Were we watching the same show ... cause it looked to me as if he was wondering - "Just what the hell did I do, Lord?!" He even had that expression on his face right after they woke up in the observatory - Tess was all smiles ... Max looked like he wanted to puke his guts out.


I'm sorry, nah-uh ... I don't buy it. I never saw them being together in that way EVER. It always felt forced to me. Even worse, it felt like she was the back up/step in - I may not have the one I love, but I'll love the one I'm with ... for now.

Ugh ... just even remembering that whole HOT mess makes me ill. It's no wonder why I can't even bring myself to watch the old episodes I've got.

[Sin]

I think it just comes down to different perceptions. I know I personally never saw him as happy with her whenever I saw them together. I actually think that Off The Menu is the only time in which they actually seemed to at least try to be on the same page, because Max "remembered" her and was excited about that. But all the other scenes they had I never got the vibe that Max was happy with her. I do think that he did end up feeling something for her that was more then friendship but I never thought that he was happy that he slept with Tess. He was ashamed it seemed. It seemed like Max actually wanted to get out of the situation any way he could for the most part until he realized that he had to do the responsible thing. Hell he originally wanted Tess to abort the baby and I think the reason for this was because he just couldn't imagine being tied to her for eternity in such a way. I mean there are even some deleted scenes or scripts out there that say Max didn't even want to hold her hand back in TEOTW. So I think that kind of shows how much Max wasn't into her. He wanted nothing to do with her so for him to go from I don't want to be with you Tess to jumping her bones in the span of three episodes was never going to make sense.

However others may just see it differently.