Tess the real dupe?

[Coccy]

You can't force people to be your friend. It's a two way street.

word.
This idea that all the characters had to be best friends with her ... I don't get it. I really don't understand what they were supposed to do especially when Tess herself never tried to be friends with them and she didn't want to be friends with them. Sociology doesn't work like that. Like Sin said it's a two way street. Gosh...she wasn't a baby!

Not to mention that regardless if she was friends with people or not she still betrayed even the ones that cared about her (see Kyle and Jim)
So this excuse that they treated her "bad" really doesn't work.
She didn't betray them because they treated her bad.

And frankly i think that knowing the circumstances they treated her very well, they really tried their best when they owed her nothing.

this also is my problem with TEOTW. Tess was selfish and she wouldn't help them without getting Max? Then lets give the toy (aka Max) to the whining child. It's really stupid.
If we want to talk about it Liz sacrificed her happiness and Max's for her, to include her in the group and it was all for nothing.

Sorry but i see the whole "the others weren't friends with her" theory as a way to justify all her actions by blaming the other characters... like if they made her like that. I get the impression that some blame the others because they didn't transform her into a good person, basically.
I think that the point is that you can't change people. Unless they want to change.

I also have the impression that this is another example of people transforming the killer in the victim and the victim(s) in the one to blame. Something that, sadly, happens all the time in real life too.
I feel that you can try to understand a bad person without blaming other people and create justifications that don't exist (and in tess case that justification doesn't even exist because they weren't bad toward her and. again, she betrayed even the ones that cared about her)
*This* is seeing things not in black and white only IMO.

You know the novel "Notre Dame De Paris" by Victor Hugo? They even made a musical about it (that i watched in 3 languages )Now, in that story I like the character of Frollo. He's the antagonist, he's bad, he's obsessed about Esmeralda, he blackmails her and he ultimately is the one that basically kills her, even if not directly. He's everything but a positive character. But I understood his story and why he was like that .. in order to understand him and why he was so insane i don't need to blame Esmeralda saying that since she didn't like him and she wasn't "nice" with him then he was justified to do what he did. He was bad and deserved what happened to him in the end. Now, I can't compare him with Tess especially since Frollo is a well written character and he has a complexity that Tess never had but even a character so complex like him ( where the writer actually cared to show you his POV) can't be justified



when it's about Tess i also noticed that her manipulating and killing Alex is glossed over sometimes. Like if the worst thing she did was coming between M&L and people hate her only for this.
while IMO Nothing of what she did could be more bad than what she did to Alex. It isn't just the fact that she killed him.. it's a combination of things and the fact that she used him like a puppet for months. She stole his life... literally.
I've read people (not here) that even blame ALEX for what had happened because you know he just couldn't accept that he was mindwarped and he went to her and was angry with her. It's ridiculous.
and we're talking about Alex. The nicest guy. He did nothing to her. He wasn't rude with her even at the beginning when she kept interrupting his moments with Isabel (and i disliked her since then because i always felt that she treated him like if he were nothing and Isabel had to give her all the attention).


another thing that i disagree with is the idea that Nacedo made her believe (or she remembered) the past life and how Zan and Ava were happy so it was bad for her to see that Max didn't feel the same and he was in love with another person. This logic is flawed for the simple reason that Tess was supposed to deliver him to the enemy anyway and that deal was made way before she met Max. Why would Nacedo make her believe that in the other life she was happy with Zan and he was a good king? It makes more sense to me that he made her believe the contrary or she knew nothing.
We shouldn't believe in everything she said about antar because she needed to seduce Max. And we can't even know if she actually remembered that life or just heard informations from Nacedo.
If Kivar wasn't her enemy then I have to guess that he wasn't Ava's enemy either. If Tess really saw herself as Ava then it makes sense that she worked for him. Point is that maybe Ava herself didn't have the best opinion of Zan.

When Tess destroyed the skins at school, did she do it or was it only a mindwarp for the roswellers??

In my opinion it was an illusion
that could explain why Nicholas seemed to die too but then at the summit he was pretty fine. and it's not that we saw him surviving in the scene.. he vanished with the others.

now if you think about it basically Tess didn't kill Nicholas when she got the chance (that scene) and Nicholas didn't kill her when he got the chance (Max in the city) that was weird.. i mean when Max found Tess she was perfectly fine i'm supposed to believe that Nicholas, Lonnie and Rath just left her alone there praying like Kyle without hurting her or use as an hostage in order to blackmail Max and the others? And "apparently" she didn't remember what happened. I don't buy it.
If they were allies then it makes sense why they didn't kill or hurt each other. If Nicholas knew about the deal then he couldn't kill her.

[Sin]

I just have to say that there seems to be a bit of revisionism here. Tess was by no means a confused victim in all of this. She was way to proactive, way to in control and had numerous choices that she could of made but she made all of the wrong ones and she deserve contempt. I say to her fans revel in her evilness and own the canon of the character. Because that is true to who Tess is. To be honest I don't think Tess herself would ever want the label of victimized ingenue.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Tess played the victim card in 4AAAB. I don't honestly think she ever thought of herself as one, even then, but I think she was.

I don't think that was so much victimization as much as was resigned acceptance that she did wrong and that she screwed up. That pretty much all of her actions to this point got her here with nothing that she wanted. She went to Antar and they didn't accept her, she burnt all of the bridges with her family and the group, her son wasn't the heir that Kivar wanted or needed, etc. I don't think it was her playing the victim but just accepting that she made the wrong choices. Even in 4AAAB she shows her selfishness when she continues to lie to Max. I guess we will have to disagree because I don't think Tess was a martyr figure what so ever.

[valentinebaby]

When I pointed out that Tess wasn't exactly friends with everybody I did not mean in any way shape or form that they were responsible for what happened or that they in any way victimized Tess. I was not not placing blame on the pod squad or the humans but merely pointing out that Tess had no reason to be loyal to them and that had it been Ava in her place raised in the exact same circumstances Tess was that Ava probably would've betrayed them as well. I'm sorry if it came across that way because I don't believe that they were responsible in any way shape or form for Tess' betrayal or Alex's death. There was no way they could've prevented it because they didn't have all the facts. Do I think things might have turned out differently had she been accepted and gotten the chance to form a bond with them, quite possibly, but they didn't know about the deal and their reactions to her were natural, sometimes people just don't mesh. When I called Tess a victim I was saying she was victimized by Nesado, not anyone else.

[Cocogurl]

Well, we don't know that for certain. Ava was raised with people about as evil and ruthless as Nasedo was and she was nothing like Tess. I know there isn't much we know about Ava, but I do know she wasn't even manipulative like Tess was when she first came to Roswell, way back before anyone thought she was a killer. That was sign to me in the first place that she couldn't be trusted. Her and Nasedo. The fact that they had to try and get into the group through manipulation.

But there are a lot of things about this show that we don't know about.

[Sin]

but merely pointing out that Tess had no reason to be loyal to them

I disagree. I think she had every right to be loyal to them because they were all under the pretense in that they were in this together. They had accepted Tess into their group and even assimilated her into their clique. It was implied that she be loyal to them, I don't see why they had to declare it or state that to her. I believe it was simply an understanding that even she knew was implicit. Tess had a reason to be loyal to them in the guise of group unity and she didn't uphold that loyalty. Isabel was willing to die for her, Max was willing to leave the planet for her, Michael welcomed her alien knowledge. Hell Liz even helped her be more attractive to Max (TEOTW) and she didn't even have the decency not to turn on them. She did owe them loyalty in not betraying them, in not putting their lives in danger. She owed them loyalty by not mind warping them, killing their friend and sending them to their executions.

and that had it been Ava in her place raised in the exact same circumstances Tess was that Ava probably would've betrayed them as well.

We can never know. I am not under the belief that Tess was that abused to where she was just forced to act the way she was. I doubt that Ava had much if any affection in her life outside of Zan and yet she still turned out alright even with Lonnie and Rath's bullying. Yet Ava was still able to connect with humans and befriend others (Isabel, Liz, Michael, etc.) which is something Tess was never shown capable of doing outside of the however brief moments with Kyle. I don't believe that Tess was destined to do any of this. I don't believe that Tess didn't have a choice and she was just naturally hardwired into betraying the group. She had a choice and she made it for better or for worse. People are more then their surroundings and if Tess wanted to be good she could have been. We saw that with Michael and Ava.

Do I think things might have turned out differently had she been accepted and gotten the chance to form a bond with them, quite possibly

The thing here is that Tess would have to want to bond with them and she simply did not want that. So that's again her own fault. As to her being accepted she already was. Max accepted her in many episodes (MITC, TEOTW, Harvest, Wipeout), Isabel accepted her in Surprise, Michael accepted her as soon as he found out about Destiny, The sheriff and Kyle accepted her very early on as well. There is a running trend and theme here. She was let in countless times, she wasn't ostracized or exiled. She had many chances to make efforts and to build relationships with people but Tess simply chose not to make them (Liz, Maria, Alex, Michael, Isabel), or when she did make them she ruined them because she didn't truly care about them (Max, Kyle, Sheriff). She only cared about herself and that was proven on every occasion when the conflict between herself and other arouse.

When I called Tess a victim I was saying she was victimized by Nesado, not anyone else.

I'm curious was it ever said that Tess was abused (mentally, physically or emotionally) by Nascedo? I have a hard time believing he was genuinely cruel to her (he seemed to treat her the best out of all of them). Perhaps cold, clinical and detached from her but I can't really see him being abusive to her. Especially considering how she was always on his side. He was like a father to her. The only damage I think could have been inflicted on her would be isolation and a lack of human empathy which could have changed things for her. But I doubt that her confidence, safety or anything otherwise was something that plagued her mind. Her human side may have been excessively under developed but that could be the only thing that Nasedo directly harmed her with, but I don't see it as something that she couldn't overcome (Michael and Ava did this with similar situations with little to no love or seemingly support).

[Cocogurl]

I think she had every right to be loyal to them because they were all under the pretense in that they were in this together. They had accepted Tess into their group and even assimilated her into their clique. It was implied that she be loyal to them, I don't see why they had to declare it or state that to her. I believe it was simply an understanding that even she knew was implicit. Tess had a reason to be loyal to them in the guise of group unity and she didn't uphold that loyalty. Isabel was willing to die for her, Max was willing to leave the planet for her, Michael welcomed her alien knowledge. Hell Liz even helped her be more attractive to Max (TEOTW) and she didn't even have the decency not to turn on them. She did owe them loyalty in not betraying them, in not putting their lives in danger. She owed them loyalty by not mind warping them, killing their friend and sending them to their executions.

I agree. I think there was an implied loyalty there because everyone let her into the group. She had a life in Roswell with these people. She had a home with Kyle and Jim. And apart from Kyle and Jim, there was no one that she really showed too much interest in apart from Max. Hell, she was Max's own little stalker.

But I guess we're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[valentinebaby]

and that had it been Ava in her place raised in the exact same circumstances Tess was that Ava probably would've betrayed them as well.

We can never know. I am not under the belief that Tess was that abused to where she was just forced to act the way she was. I doubt that Ava had much if any affection in her life outside of Zan and yet she still turned out alright even with Lonnie and Rath's bullying. Yet Ava was still able to connect with humans and befriend others (Isabel, Liz, Michael, etc.) which is something Tess was never shown capable of doing outside of the however brief moments with Kyle. I don't believe that Tess was destined to do any of this. I don't believe that Tess didn't have a choice and she was just naturally hardwired into betraying the group. She had a choice and she made it for better or for worse. People are more then their surroundings and if Tess wanted to be good she could have been. We saw that with Michael and Ava.

There are too many unknowns to give Ava this much credit. I'm sorry. We don't know what she was like. She bonded with Liz, that's it. She had her Zan, her Max and he was dead. If she wasn't already with him and she honestly believed that Max was her destiny who knows how she would've acted. Zan was dead, she loved him, she lost him, Liz loved Max, she was going to lose him, they understood each other. If Ava had stuck around longer and she continued to be sweet and nice and made friends I might be able to agree with you guys, but there was not enough time to know what she was like, and even if she had stuck around she was never in Tess' situation.

When I called Tess a victim I was saying she was victimized by Nesado, not anyone else.

I'm curious was it ever said that Tess was abused (mentally, physically or emotionally) by Nascedo? I have a hard time believing he was genuinely cruel to her (he seemed to treat her the best out of all of them). Perhaps cold, clinical and detached from her but I can't really see him being abusive to her. Especially considering how she was always on his side. He was like a father to her. The only damage I think could have been inflicted on her would be isolation and a lack of human empathy which could have changed things for her. But I doubt that her confidence, safety or anything otherwise was something that plagued her mind. Her human side may have been excessively under developed but that could be the only thing that Nasedo directly harmed her with, but I don't see it as something that she couldn't overcome (Michael and Ava did this with similar situations with little to no love or seemingly support).

There are so many different kinds of abuse, some more subtle then others. He could've done it without her even realizing she was abused. To me isolation is a form of abuse, you can't except someone to be a fully functional member of society if they're kept apart from it. I don't think a year is enough time to fix that kind of damage.

[Cocogurl]

I don't think a year is enough time to fix that kind of damage.

Well, if that's true, than really no amount of buddying up to Tess would've change the outcome because like you said, a year isn't enough time to fix the damage that was done. This doesn't make me feel sorry for her, though, because again, I felt like she had a chance to change things after Nasedo was gone. And she didn't take it. So I no longer care whether or not she was a victim. It in no way excuses what she did. But, again, agree to disagee.

[valentinebaby]

I don't think a year is enough time to fix that kind of damage.

Well, if that's true, than really no amount of buddying up to Tess would've change the outcome because like you said, a year isn't enough time to fix the damage that was done. This doesn't make me feel sorry for her, though, because again, I felt like she had a chance to change things after Nasedo was gone. And she didn't take it. So I no longer care whether or not she was a victim. It in no way excuses what she did. But, again, agree to disagee.

I said possibly, because if she had come to really care about them as people, she probably would've had second thoughts. Who knows though? Damage could've already been done. And yes you're right agree to disagree.

[Rowedog]

When I called Tess a victim I was saying she was victimized by Nesado, not anyone else.

I'm curious was it ever said that Tess was abused (mentally, physically or emotionally) by Nascedo? I have a hard time believing he was genuinely cruel to her (he seemed to treat her the best out of all of them). Perhaps cold, clinical and detached from her but I can't really see him being abusive to her.

You don't think that being cold, detached and emotionally unavailable towards a child that you're technically raising isn't abuse? From a psychological standpoint, we're all products of our environments. As children we absorb what we see and learn from that. Our relationship with our parental figures shape the rest of our interactions with people, it creates a schema which we draw upon when making new friends and meeting new people. So if Nacedo was cold, distant and emotionally unavailable to her, that's what she would have learned. That was all she'd ever known for a decade and it would take a lot more than a short year or so with Jim and Kyle to change that.

While I fully believe that Tess was responsible for her actions and could have chosen a different path, I do believe her upbringing played a major part in the way she interacted with people and what she did. It doesn't excuse what she did, or take away her responsibility for her actions, but it does help me to understand her better.

Who knows what Tess could have been if she'd been raised differently? We'll never know. I personally doubt that if she'd lived with Kyle and Jim from the minutes she crawled out of her pod that she'd have done what she did.